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Not really. BMW M5 CS is 4,100 pounds, up to around 4,350 without for the obese versions. CT5 Blackwing is 4,100 or so as well but RWD. The Plaid is 4,800 pounds. Model 3 is 3,880 pounds. 330i is 3,582 pounds. Tesla overall does a much better job at keeping the obesity of EVs in check but that does involve some trade-offs. They're a bit tin can.
ID.4 is in the 4,500 to 4,900 range versus the ICE Tiguan 3,800 to 3,900. Ioniq 5 is 4,200 to 4,600 pounds versus GV70 4,150 to 4,450 versus Tuscon 3,300 to 3,600. I haven't driven the Ioniq 5, not sure if I'd put it more in the non-luxury category like a Tuscon or more in the luxury category like the GV70. It's not that hard to really tell when you drive the cars. The extra substantial nature of obese luxury cars is pretty easy to pick up on. The Model 3 doesn't have it, Model S has less of it, Leaf doesn't have it, Bolt doesn't have it. The jam-a-job Audi e-tron does have it but then that thing is 5,700 pounds so it's not even normal EV obese and straight up morbidly obese. Just a preference but the obese luxury cars do ride differently and that's something that people who buy them tend to like about them.
The Model S Long Range is 4,561 pounds, the AMG E-Series vehicles get around 4,300 to 4,500 pounds depending on when it's offered and not necessarily with faster acceleration. The S6 is 4,486 pounds. I think that's pretty much the same weight band, right? I didn't do a deep dive into all the executive cars (the Model S is maybe a bit big compared to most E segment cars, but they are certainly not F segment). BMW's M Series does actually do more in lightweighting.
The weight for Model 3 trim is 3,627 to 4,250 pounds. That for the 3-Series is 3,582 to 4,138 pounds and I didn't exactly do an exhaustive search of everything else in the segment. I think it's tough to say that this isn't the same weight band.
Neither ID.4 nor Tiguan are premium segment. Nor is Ioniq 5 or pretty much any Hyundai. The e-tron GT is premium, and yea, not every single premium sedan EV entry has gotten that weight down. I did say that it was only premium segments that got it down and not that all entries in the premium segments. That'll be a tough one because different automakers have different levels of experience in designing EVs and sometimes once a vehicle gets released in the market it can take years before a substantial revision is done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PacoMartin
Yes, I have a huge issue when you say "similar to ICE vehicles". Range is not an issue for ICE because refueling is not a big deal. Many people are always going to make range an issue with EVs because they want the option of being able to drive all day without having to recharge.
Range will alway be a selling point with EVs up until you can't drive any longer in a day! If battery density doubles, people will want twice the range. And it doesn't matter how fast recharging gets, because it will always be slower than putting gas in your tank.
I've answered this so many times that you are going to have to be satisifed.
No, you haven't answered it before. You've distinctly ignored it as evident from cutting out any references to my posts when you reply, and the wildest thing is that now that you're answering it, essentially half of what I said is being ignored while repeating the other half back to me.
When range increases, so does fast charging. How are you assuming that range increases but charging does not? That was a pretty large part of what I said, wasn't it? Charging times have improved as fast if not faster than range has for electric vehicles. Range increases generally go with capacity increases which also correspond to charging rate increases. Even if the range was increased via efficiency, that still means more miles added per minute at any given kW rate. And it's certainly not guaranteed that fast charging will always be slower than putting gas in your tank. Do you see how irrational qualifying that with "it doesn't matter how fast recharging gets"? Well... what about fast recharging that's so fast that it's faster than putting gas in your tank?
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 02-10-2022 at 06:36 AM..
Fastest charging mass production EV in 2014 was the Model S with the 85 kWh battery pack. It charged at a max of 120 kW and held that for only low SOC, holding that peak rate up to 20% SOC and already dropping to about 75 kW at about 50% SOC and those stations were near impossible to find. Range was at 265 miles, efficiency was at 38 kWh/100 mi, bottom MSRP was $79,900 USD in 2014 dollars which is about $95K in today's dollars.
The much lower segment Ioniq 5 released late last year
- has a max charge rate of 230 kW and holds that clear through to about 50% SOC with stations far more available than the Model S had in 2014. It doesn't drop below 120 kW which was the 2014 Model S's *max* charging rate until about 80% SOC.
- range that runs a gamut from 256 to 303 miles for AWD and RWD large pack figures; cheapest small battery pack not yet released in US. These are comparable to the 2014 Model S with the large battery pack's 265 miles though given the idiosyncrasies of EPA's testing cycles, the AWD 256 mile range is probably actually higher than the 2014 Model S's 264 miles of range.
- efficiency sits higher at 30 kWh/100 mile (RWD) and 34 kWh/100 mile (AWD)
If you have higher efficiency, higher max charge rates, and can keep that higher charge rate for longer, then obviously the number of miles added per minute is going to be much higher. Plus, a greater prevalence of these fast chargers also means you often don't opt for a full charge at higher SOCs to get that last 10% of charge for most occasions unless you're parking there to do something anyways.
Changes like these have happened alongside EVs being released in less premium in market segment and price as the MSRP for the Ioniq 5 is $46K to $51K.
That's a lot of things improving at once and that's because these things are partially tied to each other in a somewhat positive feedback loop. I've been saying this same reasoning for a couple, maybe a few years on this forum now and well before the Ioniq 5's specs were released. This among other examples would seem to be pretty good evidence of how sound that reasoning was. I still think it is pretty obvious that at some point range will reach the point of being "enough" for most and where paying ever more of a premium for more range doesn't make all that much sense for most people. Where is the problem we're seeing in this line of reasoning? I think if someone were to show pretty good evidence that we were about to hit a brick wall within this decade on battery improvements, then sure, that's reasonable, but then post the sources.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 02-10-2022 at 10:25 AM..
...If battery density doubles, people will want twice the range. ...
"People" may wish for whatever they like, but this person (me) would prefer a lighter/smaller battery, for the same (or even lower) range.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
The Model S Long Range is 4,561 pounds, the AMG E-Series vehicles get around 4,300 to 4,500 pounds depending on when it's offered and not necessarily with faster acceleration. The S6 is 4,486 pounds. I think that's pretty much the same weight band, right? ...
To be fair, luxury cars have all become bloated. The 3-series BMW used to be around 2700 lbs. They've gained 1000 lbs over the past 40 years. The fatter that ICE cars get, the more competitive EVs become.
Still, there's no EV answer to the Miata. And the original EV answer to the Lotus Elise was.... well, you know that story.
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio_peasant
"People" may wish for whatever they like, but this person (me) would prefer a lighter/smaller battery, for the same (or even lower) range.
To be fair, luxury cars have all become bloated. The 3-series BMW used to be around 2700 lbs. They've gained 1000 lbs over the past 40 years. The fatter that ICE cars get, the more competitive EVs become.
Still, there's no EV answer to the Miata. And the original EV answer to the Lotus Elise was.... well, you know that story.
I firmly believe that range anxiety will prevent 50% EV sales until they develop batteries small enough to be easily exchanged at a gas/electric station in 5 minutes, or to get one from AAA. It could have a lower range as long as they are readily available to exchange on the road. Too many people are used to
driving all day stopping only for 5 minutes to gas up and another 5 to get drive-up food. Even those with an EV now that I know all have at least one ICE vehicle as well for trips.
I firmly believe that range anxiety will prevent 50% EV sales until they develop batteries small enough to be easily exchanged at a gas/electric station in 5 minutes, or to get one from AAA. It could have a lower range as long as they are readily available to exchange on the road. Too many people are used to
driving all day stopping only for 5 minutes to gas up and another 5 to get drive-up food. Even those with an EV now that I know all have at least one ICE vehicle as well for trips.
I agree it's clear that range anxiety is a deterrent for a lot of people. I think the question then is how different things factor into that anxiety and what combination of things need to change and by how much before that's not the case for the majority of new vehicle buyers. Sure, there's total charging time for x number of miles per minute, but there's also prevalence of chargers, and how much total range there is. Within those attributes are also efficiency or miles per kWh, energy density to go with that efficiency, max charge rates, charging curves, and battery thermal management to go with those. Complicating this is the rather cheap cost of installation and usage of slower chargers which can be installed at places where people park including at home which is extremely uncommon for ICE vehicles. I don't think it's clear where exactly that steady state for range and charging rate lands with all these factors, but what is clear is that all of these have been and are rapidly improving. Or at least it is for the better performing and likely better selling EVs. There are still oddball amateur hour entries with low range, low charging speeds, low efficiency despite its small size and tiny battery pack and pretty low output motors, and low value for the price like the Mazda MX-30 which I think will sell terribly unless there are massive price reductions down from MSRP that are way beyond industry averages.
I'm on the side of things that I don't think battery swaps are going to play a large part in consumer passenger vehicles. It made more sense when the pace at which fast charging was going to improve was murkier and it was unclear if there were going to be bottlenecks a decade or so down the line and before batteries improved into the energy density bands where they were good for consumer passenger vehicles. At the pace of improvements over the last decade though and without clear bottlenecks coming up, this coming decade looks pretty primed to have fast charging essentially get within the band of refueling time that we've had with ICE vehicles. I think the prime issue with battery swaps is getting everyone or a lot of automakers to do a standardized design that can be easily placed for swaps to be automated and I don't see that to be likely with so many different automakers and how impactful on design decisions this would be. Nio's the only larger scale automaker, though not here in the US, that's doing battery swaps and they don't seem to have gotten any others to sign up for it.
AAA showing up with something that can provide really high fast charging would be just as good and possibly better than with a battery swap because it's possible it'll even be integrated into the vehicle itself as I think there's a pretty good chance that at least some baseline option of vehicle to load becomes a pretty standard feature over the rest of this decade and with some vehicles likely having pretty massive max output. Remember, these EV batteries are already able to output hundreds of kWs to their motors and a connection can potentially be made for DC-to-DC power transfer among vehicle batteries. The max output to motors for the upcoming F-150 Lightning with the larger power pack, for example, is 420 kW (563 hp, and not even a "Raptor" version of it, and there are EVs out now with much, much higher output) which is well in excess of what the fastest EV batteries can take and what stations can output right now. Of course, the protocol and cabling for this will need to be standardized and I doubt consumer vehicles will have anything close to that for max output vehicle-to-load DC charging, but it is on the CCS roadmap and already part of chaDeMo. The Lightning's V2L thing is a bit of an interesting hack, but I think having a set shared standard would greatly move things along and has a pretty good chance of rolling out within this decade.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 02-10-2022 at 12:08 PM..
"People" may wish for whatever they like, but this person (me) would prefer a lighter/smaller battery, for the same (or even lower) range.
To be fair, luxury cars have all become bloated. The 3-series BMW used to be around 2700 lbs. They've gained 1000 lbs over the past 40 years. The fatter that ICE cars get, the more competitive EVs become.
Still, there's no EV answer to the Miata. And the original EV answer to the Lotus Elise was.... well, you know that story.
Yea, those luxury cars went heavy with luxury features, plush seats with massage functions and wood appointments, beefed up safety standards, and a whole host of things. I also think BMW seemed to have lost focus on being the Ultimate Driving Machine™--oh and that grill. Jesus. Current BMW and Lexus grills are just ridiculous looking to me and not good ridiculous, though I understand that's a matter of personal preference. I grew up in the 90s, being really into cars even though I wasn't old enough to drive, and a third generation Acura Integra is basically still what I want cars to look like.
Still no answer to the Miata aside from EV conversions. There is the Fiat 500 Cabrio which has a pretty small battery pack for a new EV, and is supposedly fun to drive but the chances of it making its way here are slim. I think it's going to still be a few years before automakers in the US offer a non premium segment roadster.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 02-10-2022 at 02:25 PM..
Yes, I have a huge issue when you say "similar to ICE vehicles". Range is not an issue for ICE because refueling is not a big deal. Many people are always going to make range an issue with EVs because they want the option of being able to drive all day without having to recharge.
Range will alway be a selling point with EVs up until you can't drive any longer in a day! If battery density doubles, people will want twice the range. And it doesn't matter how fast recharging gets, because it will always be slower than putting gas in your tank.
I've answered this so many times that you are going to have to be satisifed.
I wouldn't say that, but it just depends on how you use the car. For me I take a lot of day/weekend trips that are 200-300 miles. Driving out of my way to go sit in a WalMart parking lot is not high on my list of preferred uses of my time and as such an EV with a rated 400 miles is about right. I mean if it's 800 miles that's better than 400 but there's always tradeoffs. Ioniq 5 for example is 4,200 or 4,600 pounds. It's already got a big weight problem with 250-300 miles of rated range which is less than ideal. Model Y is 4,550 for 300-330 miles of range. For an ICE analog of the Ioniq 5/Model Y/MachE I'd probably look towards the top of the list at the Outback which is 3,600 to 3,900 pounds, certainly no lightweight but considerably less than any of the EVs, particularly the AWD ones.
Basically while 250-300 miles rated range is not exactly ideal it's at least to me right now about the sweet spot. At 40-60k the "affordable" EV crossovers are pushing the envelope on price, they're already very heavy. The 500 mile Lucid Air may have 500 miles of range but it's also 170,000. On the other hand the Leaf (base) or Mini SE to me just don't have enough range. They might work for some people but at 27 and 30k it's not like you can't find plenty of good basic ICE cars where I won't be regularly forced to detour to a WalMart parking lot to charge. In a different world I'd totally take a Mini SE as a fourth or fifth car. I think it's cool as a little city runabout. For someone else who has more patience and enjoys frequent scenic rest stops and exploring WalMart parking lots the Mini SE has enough range to make it between chargers and go most places you'd want to. As the number of chargers increases what minor range axiety one might have will likely no longer be a concern on something with a conservatively rated 114 miles of range. What may still be an issue though is one's patience.
I wouldn't say that, but it just depends on how you use the car. For me I take a lot of day/weekend trips that are 200-300 miles. Driving out of my way to go sit in a WalMart parking lot is not high on my list of preferred uses of my time and as such an EV with a rated 400 miles is about right. I mean if it's 800 miles that's better than 400 but there's always tradeoffs. Ioniq 5 for example is 4,200 or 4,600 pounds. It's already got a big weight problem with 250-300 miles of rated range which is less than ideal. Model Y is 4,550 for 300-330 miles of range. For an ICE analog of the Ioniq 5/Model Y/MachE I'd probably look towards the top of the list at the Outback which is 3,600 to 3,900 pounds, certainly no lightweight but considerably less than any of the EVs, particularly the AWD ones.
Basically while 250-300 miles rated range is not exactly ideal it's at least to me right now about the sweet spot. At 40-60k the "affordable" EV crossovers are pushing the envelope on price, they're already very heavy. The 500 mile Lucid Air may have 500 miles of range but it's also 170,000. On the other hand the Leaf (base) or Mini SE to me just don't have enough range. They might work for some people but at 27 and 30k it's not like you can't find plenty of good basic ICE cars where I won't be regularly forced to detour to a WalMart parking lot to charge. In a different world I'd totally take a Mini SE as a fourth or fifth car. I think it's cool as a little city runabout. For someone else who has more patience and enjoys frequent scenic rest stops and exploring WalMart parking lots the Mini SE has enough range to make it between chargers and go most places you'd want to. As the number of chargers increases what minor range axiety one might have will likely no longer be a concern on something with a conservatively rated 114 miles of range. What may still be an issue though is one's patience.
Wait a bit on the Mini SE! Next year is supposedly the debut of an electric Mini that's built on a dedicated EV platform rather than jamming the BMW i3 powertrain into the ICE Mini. I think that's likely to have much longer range and faster charging and likely lower weight, so that's attractive, but alongside that, I think there are going to be good deals on unsold and used Mini SEs which are pretty good fun and great for just putting around town.
It's notable that the Ioniq 5's big battery at 77.4 kWh is about the same weight as the much smaller Kona EV's 64 kWh battery which was first released in 2018. That's about a 20% energy density increase by weight (and a massive leap in charging capability) in three years time. This goes back to what I was saying earlier about battery improvements where I think at some point these gains aren't going to go towards just greater and greater battery capacities, but instead towards lighter battery packs. That can still add range to some extent due to efficiency but not as much as just jacking up the battery capacity. Right now people are still very focused on range, but I don't think that'll hold for the entirety of this decade. If there's to be two more iterations of 20% density increases, then splitting that between more capacity and lower weight with the second improvement more heavily towards lower weight will get them to a pretty good place both range and weight/efficiency-wise.
Also, if you look at the reviews for the Ioniq 5, as well as for some of the other EVs out there, or go for a drive, you'll notice that a lot of the vehicles are still very responsive because of that readily available torque and fairly nimble handling from a low center of gravity and fairly even weight distribution.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 02-10-2022 at 03:16 PM..
20kWh of Lithium Cobalt Oxide type li-ion battery will weigh from 100kg to 133.33kg.
20kWh of Lithium Manganese Oxide type li-ion battery will weigh from 133.33kg to 200kg.
20kWh of Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide type li-ion battery will weigh from 90.9kg to 133.33kg.
20kWh of Lithium Iron Phosphate type li-ion battery will weigh from 166.66kg to 222.22kg.
24kWh battery in the original Nissan LEAF had an EPA range of 73 miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric
I wouldn't say that, but it just depends on how you use the car.
Obviously the acceptable range is very subjective. Nissan sold ~20,000 LEAFS in the United States in 2011/2012 with the EPA range of a mere 73 miles.
I feel like there is a significant percentage of the population that will never willingly convert unless they have the ability to drive all day on a single charge.
Governor Newsom's executive order directs California to require that, by 2035, all new cars and passenger trucks sold in California be zero-emission vehicles.
Wait a bit on the Mini SE! Next year is supposedly the debut of an electric Mini that's built on a dedicated EV platform rather than jamming the BMW i3 powertrain into the ICE Mini. I think that's likely to have much longer range and faster charging and likely lower weight, so that's attractive, but alongside that, I think there are going to be good deals on unsold and used Mini SEs which are pretty good fun and great for just putting around town.
It's notable that the Ioniq 5's big battery at 77.4 kWh is about the same weight as the much smaller Kona EV's 64 kWh battery which was first released in 2018. That's about a 20% energy density increase by weight (and a massive leap in charging capability) in three years time. This goes back to what I was saying earlier about battery improvements where I think at some point these gains aren't going to go towards just greater and greater battery capacities, but instead towards lighter battery packs. That can still add range to some extent due to efficiency but not as much as just jacking up the battery capacity. Right now people are still very focused on range, but I don't think that'll hold for the entirety of this decade. If there's to be two more iterations of 20% density increases, then splitting that between more capacity and lower weight with the second improvement more heavily towards lower weight will get them to a pretty good place both range and weight/efficiency-wise.
Also, if you look at the reviews for the Ioniq 5, as well as for some of the other EVs out there, or go for a drive, you'll notice that a lot of the vehicles are still very responsive because of that readily available torque and fairly nimble handling from a low center of gravity and fairly even weight distribution.
The 72 is reportedly around the same weight as the Kona 64. Since the 72 pack is just 30 modules rather than 32 modules in the 77 pack, at a simplistic level teh 77 kwh pack would be around 1,060 pounds (divide by 30, multiple by 32). That's just taking the about 450 kg (980 pounds) for the 72 pack. In reality it's probably a bit under as there's the weight of the housing and whatnot as well as just the modules, maybe 1,050 versus the Kona is around 998 pounds. It's a better pack but also at least as expensive to manufacture.
With the Mini SE it could go either way. Right now it's not too terribly heavy for an EV, around 3,150 pounds or 200 pounds heavier than a 4 door Cooper S. An EV specific platform could likely save weight in the chassis but I think more likely than not they just offset the weight savings on the chassis with weight gains from a larger battery. Mini SE the ~29 kWh usable pack and not the larger i3 battery. The BMW i3 with the same battery is 2,960 pounds but I really don't see BMW doing a fancy carbon fiber tub on an electric Mini the way they did on the i3. They're not even doing that on the BMW electrics anymore as that was just a dumb decision. Ferraris or whatnot maybe the carbon tubs make sense but it's not worth the cost on a more normal car.
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