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People still park in the streets here, though that's not necessarily the people living there full-time. Quite a few buildings, especially new construction, have parking structures built into them which serve not just building residents, but also the general public (you have to pay for it, of course).
a. These people would charge at public chargers which is analogous to how people with ICE vehicles refuel their vehicles. Today, and even in the 1970s and 1980s, it was pretty much nonexistent for people using streetside parking to have their vehicles refueled overnight. NYC does not have gas pumps at every parking spot off the street. I sincerely doubt that NYC will thus have an electric charging station on every street parking spot. That's quite unlikely to me. The difference here is that EV charging as it is now takes longer and a lot of that in NYC is level 2 charging which takes significantly longer than a gas station refuel. It's pretty reasonable that fast level 3 charging takes about the same time to refuel an EV for comparable amount of miles as ICE vehicle refueling does now by 2030, but for now, unless you frequent a spot that has charging at parking spaces (like your work or your gym or your church or what have you), you'll have to make dedicated recharging trips that take longer than the equivalent ICE vehicle refueling trip. Is that a trade-off that everyone that does street parking is willing to take right now? No, it is not. Though ultimately, by 2030, it's likely that there isn't even that advantage anymore for ICE vehicles.
b. I know that NYC is considering some public pilot projects, but I'm against expanding such with public money. I think it should be that NYC simplifies the permitting process and gives some design guidance to make it fast to process, but ultimately this should be in the hands of private companies offering curbside charging. They stand to make some money here, so I don't see public tax dollars paying for such being a great idea beyond a pilot program for research. Also, keep in mind that it isn't necessary for every vehicle-owning tenant to have charging where they park every time. You can go hundreds of miles before charging and doing in-city driving means you are unlikely to be driving hundreds of miles per day, so you aren't depleting that "tank" every day so you also don't need to fully recharge every day and that's for even today. The median city driving range for an EV sold last year is going to be at worst a Tesla Model 3 SR (since Tesla sold more than half the new EVs last year, so the median is going to be a Tesla). That's at minimum for city driving about 250 miles of range and that was 2021. Median new vehicle range (as well as max charging rate and number of chargers available) has been increasing just about every year and is much higher than what it was seven years ago, so it's likely to be much higher seven years from now as well. It's not like every single time you drive an ICE vehicle, no matter how short the distance, means you have to refill that tank.
Right, good point in showing how it's not necessary. There is no need for a gas pump for every tenant. There is no need for a charging station for every tenant. Chargers are relatively easy/cheap to install and operate compared to gas station pumps, so you can ostensibly have it, but I don't think the market will support or need such unless everyone is buying short range less than 100 miles EVs with very small battery packs. That is very apparently not what the US EV market is doing so, and thus I don't see a particularly good market incentive to have a charging station for every tenant in regards to street side parking.
There is no need to have a fuel pump for every tenant, simply because: No landlord could afford dealing with the EPA rules relating to hazardous/very flammable materials in tanks underground, and also because it only takes a few minutes to fully "fuel" an ice automobile at a gas station along the way to work. Not only that, but the "reserve fuel" in the tank allows for warming the engine and get you over 30 miles to a gas station if the tank is on the empty mark.
In relation to EV's, it is my understanding that some EV's come with a charger (?). Anyway, the electricity at the outlet is not under the EPA rules dealing with hazardous materials. So if a landlord can remodel a multi-apartment building to include a parking lot with electrical outlets for EV charging, the cost for the use of electricity is passed down to the tenants. But that won't happen anytime soon with the older brick and concreted apartment buildings throughs all of the NYC boroughs.
Now, parking an EV for extended periods of time in hot or very cold temperatures can discharge the traction battery, or even damage it. The following link is a great place for any EV driver who wants to know about long term parking without charging the battery or not: https://www.autovolt-magazine.com/ho...urer-guidance/
Increasingly, I see Level 2 charging units like this shown below at public access points. It's one slim charging unit that can service two adjacent parking spaces and is mounted right between them. This saves money on chargers as well as installation costs. At the underground parking garage at work we've got a dozen of these on each level.
initial article in WSJ
Steven Penkevich spent 36 years at Ford Motor Co. as part of an army of Detroit engineers who perfected the internal combustion engine, a technology dating back to the dawn of the automobile era. He developed gasoline engines for family sedans as well as thunderous Nascar racing machines.
By last year, though, the excitement was gone. His projects were no longer about advancing the engine, just nursing along existing technology. All the buzz had shifted to electric vehicles. In December, Mr. Penkevich took early retirement at age 59.
“It got to feel like you’re on a maintenance crew,” he said.
For more than a century, auto makers continually honed their gas and diesel engines, sparring over which had greater power, better fuel efficiency, more durability or delivered a smoother ride.
Now, some of the world’s biggest car companies are sending the combustion engine to the scrap heap and are pouring billions of dollars into electric motors and battery factories. Instead of powertrain specialists, they are hiring thousands of software engineers and battery experts.
The transition is hardly noticeable yet on showroom floors. But it is upending the automotive workplace, from the engineering ranks and supply chain to the factory floor. Experts like Mr. Penkevich are retiring early or being laid off. Parts makers that for generations have made the same pieces for engines and transmissions are jockeying to supply electrical components.
Unions in the U.S. and Europe, fearing a steep loss of jobs tied to making engines and transmissions, are appealing to governments to help protect their members. The United Auto Workers has warned that the move to electric vehicles, which the union has said require fewer parts and roughly 30% less manpower to produce, could jeopardize tens of thousands of U.S. jobs.
“It’s been a fun ride,” said engineer Dave Lancaster, who spent 40 years working in engine development at General Motors Co. GM -1.26% “But I think we’re coming into the homestretch for the conventional engine.”
With gasoline national average at $4.32 I am much closer to accepting 50% by 2030.
You often mention work charging. How many real world employers will install chargers for employees (until there are massive tax write-offs)?
Thinking back to my employers every single one of them would have laughed at the idea, including the governmental one.
I often mention a lot of different modes of charging with saying that home charging is by far the most likely form of charging most people would be using now and by the time BEVs are 50% of new vehicle sales in the US. I mention work charging because that does exist as does charging for parking at other places people might be frequent and as does dedicated charging stops that aren't a part of parking to do something, but these are and will continue to be a minority of people who use those as the primary charging.
That being said, there is some workplace charging and that will contribute a little bit to BEVs making 50% of new vehicle sales. It will be a smaller contribution though as the stats I've found are that workplace charging in 2021 stood at about 100K stalls though in reality it's probably a bit higher than that as there are less official kinds of workplace charging that aren't J1772 or level 3 charger installs as at least some of the public level 2 chargers in their count are also likely used as workplace chargers even if they aren't officially classified as such since if you're parking there while you're working there, then it functions as a workplace charger even if it's not officially designated one. I think that's less likely with fast DC level 3 chargers though like the kind you find at Walmart though as it's generally pretty bad form to park at a fast level 3 charger for several hours and there's usually an additional cost for extra long durations where you're plugged but already fully charged.
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person
I just think it's interesting how many EV boosters always talk about how "you can charge in your garage at your house when you're sleeping" and wave off any contradictions in that theory for apartments, non-garage houses, townhouses, etc. while also ignoring the massive infrastructure costs to install street level chargers.
We did it a couple years ago, a two place charger. Had it not been for a grant the cost would have been around $30,000. As it was we paid $5,000 and also got a free car. The Town also gets a spiff from the charging fee, not much.
I don't understand how we're still having this conversation though. This has been addressed over and over again. The vast majority of that 50% EV new vehicle buyers are going to be those who *can* charge while at home. It's been stated a lot of times over and over again. When asked about what do people who don't have the ability to charge at home, then it's either one of two things: they fall into some set of conditions where getting an EV works for them as there's sufficiently good charging for them that aren't at home or they shouldn't get an EV. It's not that hard.
Meanwhile, why wouldn't someone ignore the massive infrastructure costs to install street level chargers? As mentioned before, they're for the most part not necessary for most street side parking or at all, and if some private interest wants to develop it to make money, then sure, I don't see why someone would have a problem with that. They offer a useful service and can make money on it? Well, isn't that how a lot of things work?
Do you drive an EV? It's interesting that you have charging installed. Is it for visitors if you don't?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayinAK
There is no need to have a fuel pump for every tenant, simply because: No landlord could afford dealing with the EPA rules relating to hazardous/very flammable materials in tanks underground, and also because it only takes a few minutes to fully "fuel" an ice automobile at a gas station along the way to work. Not only that, but the "reserve fuel" in the tank allows for warming the engine and get you over 30 miles to a gas station if the tank is on the empty mark.
In relation to EV's, it is my understanding that some EV's come with a charger (?). Anyway, the electricity at the outlet is not under the EPA rules dealing with hazardous materials. So if a landlord can remodel a multi-apartment building to include a parking lot with electrical outlets for EV charging, the cost for the use of electricity is passed down to the tenants. But that won't happen anytime soon with the older brick and concreted apartment buildings throughs all of the NYC boroughs.
Now, parking an EV for extended periods of time in hot or very cold temperatures can discharge the traction battery, or even damage it. The following link is a great place for any EV driver who wants to know about long term parking without charging the battery or not: https://www.autovolt-magazine.com/ho...urer-guidance/
There is no ability to have a fuel pump for every tenant and to save money while doing so. It's going to cost you a lot more money to have that kind of convenience. You simply do not have any reasonable ability to make that happen in a way where that convenience costs you *less* to refuel. That's essentially what home charging with EVs provide.
If your building doesn't have dedicated parking, then you'll have to charge in the other methods mention. Where that's still net more convenient is if there were places you frequented where there is charging at the parking for those places (a category that could include workplace parking) because you will have parked the vehicle anyways. Where it is less convenient is if there is no place you frequent where there is charging at the parking lot so you have to make a dedicated trip to a recharging station just as an ICE vehicle has to go to make a dedicated trip to a refueling station though with the current disadvantage for EVs that this trip will be somewhat longer though this won't necessarily hold for new EVs in 2030.
Keep in mind that the specs of the best mass production EV seven years ago are now pretty average or worse than that of several new smaller and much cheaper EVs today.
I go to a big church that has a couple of charging places behind the church. but you have to get there by 7am for a 9am service to get a spot.
That's great, when only we are only at 5% EV saturation. There better be some changes made before we get to 50% though, or those couple of places at your church just aren't going to cut it.
An average of 15 million new cars are sold each year (less right now). That means that if the "50% of new cars sold" goal is reached by 2030, that's about 7 million cars.
Do people think there's less than 7 million single family homes with off street parking in the US?
7 million out of 280 million cars is a mere 3% of all cars on the road. And you think that's an impossible to achieve goal in 8 years time????
An average of 15 million new cars are sold each year (less right now). That means that if the "50% of new cars sold" goal is reached by 2030, that's about 7 million cars.
Do people think there's less than 7 million single family homes with off street parking in the US?
7 million out of 280 million cars is a mere 3% of all cars on the road. And you think that's an impossible to achieve goal in 8 years time????
In 2019, 17 million vehicles were sold in the US. Of that 17 million, 245,000 were EV's. To get to 50% in 8 years is a far stretch. I'm sure as the years progress, there will be more EV's to choose from, but still...to jump that much doesn't seem likely.
In 2019, 17 million vehicles were sold in the US. Of that 17 million, 245,000 were EV's. To get to 50% in 8 years is a far stretch. I'm sure as the years progress, there will be more EV's to choose from, but still...to jump that much doesn't seem likely.
in 2019, there were only a couple models, so yeah, not many were sold. But since then, Tesla alone has sold way more than that per year, and there are the Bolt, Ioniq, Soul, Kona, eGolf, and now the ID4, Mach E, Bolt EUV, Audi eTron range (both crossover and sedan), Polestar, Taycan, Rivian, Lucid, and soon the Lightning, Lyriq, Silverado EV, Ram EV, Equinox and Blazer EVs, ID Buzz, and many more just in the US alone, and we're still 8 years away from the 2030 goal year. GM is releasing 20 EVs in the next 3 years. Toyota just showed a fleet of EVs for them and Lexus to be on sale in 2-4 years.
Choice and quality will be available across a wide range of prices, within 5 years (and the range NOW is vastly larger than it was in 2019). The rate of growth in that market is exponential, not linear. getting to 50% of sales in 8 years isn't that big a goal, actually AND it still will be a drop in the bucket compared to how many cars are out there being used. Simply put, edge cases like road trippers and apartment/condo dwellers will not be affected for decades. And in 5-10 years, the used EV market will be huge, as well.
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