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... I mean, how many people, historically, have taken vacations requiring 1,000 miles of travel from point A to point B? Not many, definitely not many outside the 1%ers.
Remember startup airlines? We had a ton of them in the 80's. A smaller but still sizeable second generation crop of them in the 90's. Anyone remember names like PSA, AirCal, Reno Air, Western Pacific, etc?
Today there are none. Given the regulatory hurdles in place today, those days are OVER. It's highly, highly unlikely we'll ever see any more new airlines like that again. What we have now is what we will have ten, twenty, a thousand years from now. That's it. The last attempted upstart I'm aware of-California Pacific-was strangled to death through endless bureaucracy at the FAA. They had all their ducks in a row, a sound business plan, and were well funded. And yet they were refused to allow to fly. SOMEONE in the FAA owed someone a favor and intentionally denied, denied, and denied that airline the rights to fly. I'm convinced of it.
*snipped for brevity only*
IIRC those "start-up" airlines like People's Express and Tower Air were the beginning of a downward spiral we've seen today in terms of service, amenities and so forth.
Legacy carriers watched and learned as persons lined up by the hundreds for "cheap" seats on "no frills" flights and realized something; a sizeable demographic of the flying public didn't give a hoot about anything else more than getting from point "A" to "B" safely and cheaply as possible.
It has been a race to the bottom ever since. *LOL*
I never understood why the US doesn't have a couple of airlines in the top ten best airlines ranking. I mean the US is a superpower, pioneer in aviation and yet we have AA, Delta, United etc etc all crap airlines by developed countries standards. KLM, Air France, British Airways, Lufthansa, SAS etc etc are all better airlines than what we have in the US. Why is that?
The US gov works for corporations not for the public.
We have a system that is completely geared up to allow corporations to write laws and simply hand those bills to elected officals who then present them as their own...
US airlines have been allowed to buy each other to reduce competition, nobody has stopped them and the result is few flights, little or zero competition on many routes.
The fix is easy. simply reduce the number of passengers allowed on each model of airplane....
AND set legal min pitch width etc.
Sadly with Goldman Sachs now running the country it is very unlikely they will help , in fact it is likely they will allow airlines to do whatever they want.
Goldman Sachs /wall street know they only get four years as the public will be extremely angry by this time next year..... never mind the outrage when people figure out just how much they gave up by voting to get rid of ACA..
The fix is easy. simply reduce the number of passengers allowed on each model of airplane....
AND set legal min pitch width etc.
Some of our airports (e.g.. LGA, DCA) have capacity constraints. You can serve the same number of customers with ten 150-seat planes as you can with 15 100-seat planes, but you can use your existing runway capacity better with the larger planes.
As for seat pitch and width, I admit that I'd love to see 34-inch pitch and 20-inch width. But a government that can mandate these things is a government that can also mandate how large restaurant tables must be, or how wide hotel beds must be, or how much leg room you get at the movie theater. I would prefer to take my chances with a competitive marketplace deciding these things.
Stay in business? Did you not hear about the millions of dollars they made in profit last year? It's greed, pure and simple. Airlines are more interested in profit margins than they are their customers. Until customers refuse to allow themselves to be treated this way, it will remain the same.
Have you not heard of their constant bankruptcies? Things are great right now. They won't be for long. To quote Warren Buffet:
Quote:
The airline industry has situation where have very, very, very low incremental cost per seat with enormous fixed costs. The temptation to sell that last seat at a very low price is very high and sometimes it’s very hard to distinguish between that seat and the last seat. It’s labor-intensive and capital-intensive and largely commodity-type business. As Bill Miller points out, it’s been a death trap for business since Orville took off. If it ever gets down to one airline it will be a wonderful business and the question will be if having gotten down to relatively few through bankruptcy the question will be whether it is a good business yet. I don’t know the answer but I’m skeptical.
That being said, he does now invest in the three legacy carriers. Not sure what that means. Forbes Welcome
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Originally Posted by WhoIsStanwix?
How do customers refuse, though? Stop traveling? Drive across the country for a four-hour meeting? If folks are in agreement that service stinks across the board and there aren't alternative modes of transit that are fast enough to meet wants and needs, what other choice is there?
The simple truth is, Americans aren't willing to PAY FOR BETTER SERVICE. Or, at least not enough of them are. Why is it that budget airlines prosper (Spirit, Allegiant, etc,) while there isn't any "luxury airlines" that seem to do well domestically?
Also, I wonder how many travelers, as a percentage, travel for business? My company isn't going to spring for first class. I get the cheapest option available.
NYC to CA is a little over 6 hours. Most people would rather pay less and get there with as little fuss as possible. Most flights are much shorter. For 3.5 hours most people would rather pay $1-200 and pay for their soda rather than pay $300 (or $500 and be catered to.)
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Originally Posted by foundapeanut
OK you probably don't mean what I'm reading. But how does one run an airline with old spare parts?
OH goodie this fell off the SW flight, maybe we can use it!
Do they McGyver something out of a metal lunch box to fix the landing gear?
No wonder my flight last month on AA was less than stellar.
A surplus of spare parts on the ground means faster maintenance, and fewer delays. Instead of having to shuffle in a new plane, or wait for a part to come in from Chicago to Indianapolis or St. Louis or whatever, they have it their, where they need it.
A huge amount of delays seem to be due to aircraft maintenance.
Business travel makes up 75% of profit margin on some US routes (Boyd Group International)
For very long flights on my own dime, I'm more than willing to pay a premium for a comfortable flight and fast, free drink service. When flying internationally, that means using non-US carriers almost exclusively. Crossing the US, it's tough to find this kind of offering except for a few routes like LA-NYC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOV
Also, I wonder how many travelers, as a percentage, travel for business? My company isn't going to spring for first class. I get the cheapest option available.
Within the US, business travelers are, on average, about 12% of passenger volume, but make up the bulk of profit margin. I'd say about half my work travel is on short notice, with correspondingly crazy high coach fares.
Business travelers are much more likely to be loyal to one airline/alliance, and to accumulate miles and frequent flyer status, reaching the level where you get lounge access and free upgrades.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOV
The simple truth is, Americans aren't willing to PAY FOR BETTER SERVICE. Or, at least not enough of them are. Why is it that budget airlines prosper (Spirit, Allegiant, etc,) while there isn't any "luxury airlines" that seem to do well domestically?
One problem with a luxury airline is that a perception or price point seen as being "luxury" would make it less likely that employers would be willing to approve using them for travel. Airlines use the "medallion status" approach to granting perks and upgrades from full-fare coach to cater to business travelers without alienating the bean counters who control the business travel purse strings.
AA is changing. It's getting better. I'm seeing it from in the inside out. It will take time. They are actively offering buyouts for the senior people, the folks that are mostly jaded and have been through the worst of times. Also what I'm seeing is really investment in reliability right now. Lots of new aircraft, spare parts, scheduling changes, and higher headcount across all departments resulting in a higher on time departure and completion rate then just a few years ago.
Keep in mind, over the last 15 years the US airlines have had intense pressure to reduce costs by all means. 9/11, the fuel crisis, then the great recession that has lingered on, now they are finally making some money. In years past they used the money they made one year to keep the lights on for the next 2-3. They are slowly investing in their product but it's tough to reverse 15 years of cost cutting overnight.
I was all ready to write "I stand corrected" until I clicked on the link. Three key differences between the study and my point:
1)The study is from 2001 and 2005. When I said "historically" I was talking about 1789 or so to about 1975. Prior to airlines few people took 1,000 mile vacations. They stayed close to home, or moved away entirely. So, we are, as a species, familiar with NOT traveling far enough to make airlines a viable business. We can go back to that. Deregulation lowered prices and quality. Someday the quality may fall so low while prices surge up that the new people enticed to fly stop flying. That's my original point.
2)The study asks who took vacations away from home. Away from home is anything . . . away from home. If I go to a B&B in the town next door, that's away from home. Thus, the study does not address my point. Indeed, it probably overstates the number of people flying.
3)The study still shows a sharp relationship between income and travel. It is probably at least as strong for airline travel as it is for "vacation away from home."
Recent figures indicate that about half the people in the U.S. did not fly last year.
I'm 6'3" with broad shoulders. As long as I have an aisle seat with 31" seat pitch and board early enough to have a slot for my roll-aboard in the overhead, I can deal with pretty much anything on a domestic flight as long as the flight is on time. I fly out of Boston/Logan for anything long haul. The longest domestic flight to LAX is 6 1/2 hours into the jet stream. As long as I have the aisle to spill out into and can get up and walk around every hour or so, I'm fine. I'm fully capable of bringing my own food and water. I use the British Airways morning flight from Logan to get to Heathrow for any Europe trip. Again, 6-ish hours on the plane and not during sleeping hours. Give me a 31" seat pitch aisle seat and I'm fine.
I recoil in horror at the new "Basic" fares the majors are offering. No assigned seating. No carry-on bag. The corporate bean counters are going to insist I book it and there's no way I'm going to ever show up at an airport where I'm likely to get a 31" seat pitch middle seat and have to check my roll-aboard for a fee. Nope. If that's the corporate travel policy, I'm not going. Fire me and good luck getting a replacement who will put up with it. I have also had Asian employers try to fly me to Taiwan and Korea in coach. I refused. Business class or I'm not going. I'm not going to risk deep vein thrombosis on a 24+ hour travel time connecting flight.
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Business travel makes up 75% of profit margin on some US routes (Boyd Group International)
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