Hyperion: Tallest Redwood: Heard hide or hair? Scuttlebutt? (fencing, safe)

[Ruth4Truth]

Hi, Evgeny. Your English is impressive. What I don't understand is, if you love redwoods, why isn't it enough to be able to walk through the forests and parks, enjoying the trees? Why is it so important to be able to reach the exceptional ones? Most people are very happy to enjoy the total environment of the redwood forest, without seeking out specific trees. I understand (from this thread) that a sort of cult has evolved over finding trophy trees, but most people are perfectly satisfied without that. And btw, in Big Basin State Park, southwest of San Jose, in the north part of Santa Cruz County, there's a short trail that has the two largest redwoods in the central coast area marked. There are many trails of varying difficulty in the park, one going from the high elevation of the ranger station down to the beach (pretty much an all-day hike). It's a great park.

As for "damage", from what I understand, with too many people climbing all over the roots, they can become damaged. Also, people are idiots. They don't all have respect for living treasures, and they'll do dumb things like carve their initials in the bark, or as someone already mentioned, saw off the burl wood, or whatever. You just never know what people might do; human nature doesn't always show its best.

[OldManWinter]

Mr. Vaden and Mr. Graham, I think you are both missing the BIG issue with the FR site, which will no doubt come back to bite the web site owner in the butt within the next few months or years. I hope the owner of FR has a lot of money stockpiled in the bank. Anybody who visits the FR site and then hikes out to the trees following their GPS coordinates, maps, or information and gets injured along the way has every right to file a lawsuit and sue the owner of FR for damages. Hiking out to many of these trees is seriously dangerous and could even result in a fatality (such as at the Hyperion giant fallen logs creek blockade). With the FR web site, regular people and even children will probably follow his directions and go to the trees. The moment someone gets injured, I would fully expect a lawsuit to be filed and the FR owner to be sued for significant damages. Could run into the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. I can't believe the FR owner is accepting responsibility for injuries or deaths by publishing that information.

[mdvaden]

Originally Posted by EShcherbakov

Hello everyone.

I've registered just to write this post ... SNIP ... What I feel I personally need are not merely statements, but papers and verifiable facts. If there is such an information on some website, then I'm sorry for this remark, and please, guide me to it ... SNIP ...

~Evgeny

Give me a ring some night after 6 pm. The number is on my site which is easy to find.

Easier explained talking probably. There's hoards online for arborists, etc.. But I think it is something easier explained. I just finished a one-hour consultation for drainage in someone's yard about an hour ago. And that sort of consult shares resemblance in that I need to help people understand soil, roots, trees. etc.. I do a couple or three per week. And its often better to teach some, then hear their question to know what's needed next to help. You will not get charge a fee for a redwood chat on the phone for this.

Friday to Monday January 29th - 31st I will probably be unavailable. But this 1/27 ... 1/28 of 2016 are good, and then, say, 2/1 or 2/2 forward.

Cheers,

MD Vaden

[mdvaden]

Originally Posted by EShcherbakov

... SNIP ... can this damage be verified and if it's important at all, given the adjacent trees? What I feel I personally need are not merely statements, but papers and verifiable facts. If there is such an information on some website, then I'm sorry for this remark, and please, guide me to it ... SNIP ...

~Evgeny

This page page partly covers what you are talking about.

Read: Soil, compaction, particle sizes > Soil Care & Compaction

Soil is very intricate. And that might offer insight why a post the other day being snarky about 1 millimeter of soil, doesn't even qualify as sarcasm. Soil and horticulture can be affected on a microscopic level, let alone big changes. The page is not tree-specific, but the knowledge crosses over. It relates to grasses, shrubs, urban trees and old growth forest soils.

I think that the upper tier of country club and golf course superintendents often understand this even better than arborists, although canopy scientists working in the redwoods most likely have this type of information under their belt. But golf courses tend to do more work that preserves, changes or corrects soil than several other professional facets.

Basically, the sealing of soil can happen due to particles smaller than 1 millimeter. You should find a page with this image on it. Also, regarding damage, I'm not sure if you read other pages covering illegal climbing and how it can interfere with sensors and data lines in the largest or tallest redwoods. Detachment of one cable can mean a break in a stream of data that needs to be continuous. Some illegal climbing has happened. Leaking location details risks damage to gear and scientific research as well as to soil, plants and redwoods.

[cvolson40]

After following... I have one question I'll throw out to help myself understand both sides a little better. Evgeny, you bring up valid points but I will say my bias is to the side of secrecy to protect the trees.

Here is my question - what is the reason these giant marvels are kept secret? Is it for science? Is it for their inherent "right" as a beautiful organism?

The same question goes to what is the reason people are seeking the Giants? The obvious answer is they spark an awe in us to seek "that" one that is the most extreme?

Both sides can argue as to why or why the other doesn't need the extreme, science and study other trees and the hiker can see other beautiful trees.

The reason I side with the secrecy is due to the amount of time the old growth have been on earth. It spans our lifetime. Prior to discovery, they have lived peacefully in their habitat. And since our discovery, we have disrupted. I believe that we don't know the damage we may cause in our visits, thus, that information should be guarded for the future generations to study and leave as it sits. Who knows how many years or what information can be gathered? But if we destroy, it's disrupting this ability to be gathered.

Maybe science isn't at the core of the secrecy argument, but using those questions I am interested in a response if anyone would like to elaborate. Thanks!

[mdvaden]

Originally Posted by cvolson40

After following... I have one question I'll throw out to help myself understand ... SNIP ... Thanks!

Any chance you may have read the page I linked to in my last reply for the other person? And, have you read and seen the photos on this page documenting the deterioration after locations were released?

LINK > The Forest Weeps

So here are a few reasons. If these reason are insufficient for someone, then it means they don't care if those problems happen, and are content with the change, damage, loss of vegetation, etc..

1. Soil compaction and increased erosion

2. Loss of vegetation

3. Compromising research gear, sensors, etc., to illegal climbing in the canopy

4. Compromising research sensors on the ground level due to foot traffic.

Most people are oblivious to research equipment and don't look for it. Stratosphere Giant had soil sensors on the ground. Most likely some were dislodged by people wandering around looking at the tree. At another redwood in Humboldt Redwoods SP very recently, I spotted bent tags in a research plot, and it looked like someone had tried removing some for souvenirs or something. I've helped install tags in the past, and know the ones there looked tampered with.

[OldManWinter]

Hey everyone following directions maps GPS etc on FR be careful out there. If you get injured following their directions maps GPS have your lawyer prepare a lawsuit against FR for damages.

[totallyawesometruthsayer]

Originally Posted by OldManWinter

Hey everyone following directions maps GPS etc on FR be careful out there. If you get injured following their directions maps GPS have your lawyer prepare a lawsuit against FR for damages.

That would be exactly the same as suing a travel guide publisher because you got mugged in Paris. Good luck finding a lawyer to take that stinker of a case.

[OldManWinter]

This is completely different. FR (aka you) are sending people into dangerous areas where they could suffer a fatality or serious injury. Think rushing creeks, slippery footing, giant slippery log/trees stacked up below Hyperion. I would fully expect FR (you) to get sued or a guidebook to be sued if they recommended hanging out in areas of Paris like St Denis, La Courneuve, or Mantes-la-Jolie after hours or even going for a walk in Rue St. Denis in the middle of the night. Guidebooks wouldn't do something stupid like that. I'm sure that Mr. Vaden, Mr. Graham, and I would all be willing to testify if someone gets injured looking for these trees that FR is at fault for sending people there. Guidebooks also have pages and pages of clauses and non-responsibility statements.

[totallyawesometruthsayer]

Originally Posted by OldManWinter

FR (aka you)

I kind of wish it was me. I was planning to spend the next couple of summers identifying and publishing locations to spite the sickening elitism of redwood culture, but luckily someone did it before I had to.

The only "involvement" I have with Famous Redwoods is a promise to myself to mirror the website far and wide if something happens to it.

Why stop with suing FR? You could sue the RNSP to shut down all public access to the redwoods because it's one big slip and fall liability. Someone could get hurt! Maybe they'll be willing to compromise by putting nerf foam paths to every superlative tree, as well as putting metal scaffolding around the most tempting trees. Also, any climbing, recreational or scientific, must be banned because that's a lawsuit waiting to happen. Maybe they could lay a metal grating over the entirety of Redwood creek. Otherwise little kids might drown in it.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure anyone heading into a national park knows that twisted ankles are one of the risks and any judge would agree.