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Stats, how many countries/cities have you lived in? Because I have lived in quite a few and would say that Toronto is by far the most racist city I have personally lived. Interesting how people have different views based on their experiences.
According to this study Canada is the most tolerant country in the world - and b/c the GTA accepts the majority if the country's immigrants, I'd say the GTA plays a large role in the 'Tolerance'. I'm sorry you've had bad experiences in Toronto - your experience is anecdotal...the research says something much different
Melting pot and mosaic are fundamentally different....
Melting pot and mosaic are fundamentally different... in theory. They are just an idea. Melting pot and mosaic don't exist in real life, and process of assimilation of immigrants in both countries (Canada and the US) is basically the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stats1
Canada's 'lack of national identity' is a direct result of our mosaic structure...it's real....
Yes, it's real, but it's not the result of Canada's "mosaic structure". It's the result of very small population living in small pockets isolated from each other and spread out over almost 10 million square kilometres. Add to this 2 official languages, and distinctiveness of Quebec and many other factors in addition to immigration and you get the lack of national identity. "Mosaic" has nothing to do with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stats1
...it takes a couple of generations for immigrants kids/grand kids to feel 'Canadian'....
The same is true for immigrants in the US. Either it is so-called "mosaic" or "melting pot", the process is identical. Mosaic and melting pot are just ideas that have nothing to do with real life. The process of assimilation / integration of immigrants in both coutries is pretty much the same. It's not that you feel an American and forget your past, heritage and identity the next date after landing in the US because of "what melting pot did to you" by melting you in a HUGE pot full of other immigrants.
You must be a little ignorant if you think otherwise. "Mosaic" and "melting pot" are just two different names of the same game.
Last edited by movingwiththewind; 05-07-2012 at 10:00 AM..
Melting pot and mosaic are fundamentally different... in theory. They are just an idea. Melting pot and mosaic don't exist in real life, and process of assimilation of immigrants in both countries (Canada and the US) is basically the same.
Yes, it's real, but it's not the result of Canada's "mosaic structure". It's the result of very small population living in small pockets isolated from each other and spread out over almost 10 million square kilometres. Add to this 2 official languages, and distinctiveness of Quebec and many other factors in addition to immigration and you get the lack of national identity. "Mosaic" has nothing to do with it.
The same is true for immigrants in the US. Either it is so-called "mosaic" or "melting pot", the process is identical. Mosaic and melting pot are just ideas that have nothing to do with real life. The process of assimilation / integration of immigrants in both coutries is pretty much the same. It's not that you feel an American and forget your past, heritage and identity the next date after landing in the US because of "what melting pot did to you" by melting you in a HUGE pot full of other immigrants.
You must be a little ignorant if you think otherwise. "Mosaic" and "melting pot" are just two different names of the same game.
The branding of mosaic vs. melting pot leads some to believe that they are different, but if you look any study generally the results are that children and grandchildren of immigrants in Canada don't hold onto their languages and culture any more than they do in the U.S., and in some cases they assimilate even faster. The one exception is Montreal where French doesn't exert as strong a pressure on the immigrant languages as English does in the rest of the country. But elsewhere, English is a pretty big steamroller and usually rides roughshod of all other languages within a few generations. (Including, pretty often, even French, in spite of the fact it has official status and varying levels of institutional support depending on where you are.)
Melting pot and mosaic are fundamentally different... in theory. They are just an idea. Melting pot and mosaic don't exist in real life, and process of assimilation of immigrants in both countries (Canada and the US) is basically the same.
Yes, it's real, but it's not the result of Canada's "mosaic structure". It's the result of very small population living in small pockets isolated from each other and spread out over almost 10 million square kilometres. Add to this 2 official languages, and distinctiveness of Quebec and many other factors in addition to immigration and you get the lack of national identity. "Mosaic" has nothing to do with it.
The same is true for immigrants in the US. Either it is so-called "mosaic" or "melting pot", the process is identical. Mosaic and melting pot are just ideas that have nothing to do with real life. The process of assimilation / integration of immigrants in both coutries is pretty much the same. It's not that you feel an American and forget your past, heritage and identity the next date after landing in the US because of "what melting pot did to you" by melting you in a HUGE pot full of other immigrants.
You must be a little ignorant if you think otherwise. "Mosaic" and "melting pot" are just two different names of the same game.
tx for the enlightenment...you really said very little
The first link that you provided starts with: "The idea of a cultural mosaic..."
The second link starts with: "The melting pot is a metaphor for..."
Exactly what I said in my two previous posts. Just two different names for the same game.
In reality, the process of assimilation in both countries is virtually identical and governments of both coutries are equally interested that new immigrants integrate as quickly as possible, as it is in best interests of both new immigrants and host countries.
Why are you determined that US government somehow treats immigrants any different that Canadian government? Canadian government promotes diversity and cultural heritage of new immigrants while at the same time wants them to feel at home and become Canadians and American government wants new immigrants to feel at home and become American while at the same time promotes their cultural heritage.
What is the difference? America has China towns, Little Italies and areas where predominantly immigrants from the same origin countries live and so does Canada. How is it different? If the idea of melting pot had any real impact, there would be more immigrant population mixing in the United States than in Canada, which is obviously not the case.
I could also say that the idea of "melting pot" is one nation out of many, and the idea of "mosaic" is many nations in one. Is it really different? At the end, two different names, same goal, same result.
Instead of attaching wiki and other links, just give me examples from REAL life showing how so-callled "mosaic" is any different from "melting pot". I could as well use "mosaic" instead of "melting pot" to describe the diversity of population of the US, and who would disagree?
Last edited by movingwiththewind; 05-09-2012 at 08:24 AM..
The first link that you provided starts with: "The idea of a cultural mosaic..."
The second link starts with: "The melting pot is a metaphor for..."
Exactly what I said in my two previous posts. Just two different names for the same game.
In reality, the process of assimilation in both countries is virtually identical and governments of both coutries are equally interested that new immigrants integrate as quickly as possible, as it is in best interests of both new immigrants and host countries.
Why are you determined that US government somehow treats immigrants any different that Canadian government? Canadian government promotes diversity and cultural heritage of new immigrants while at the same time wants them to feel at home and become Canadians and American government wants new immigrants to feel at home and become American while at the same time promotes their cultural heritage.
What is the difference? America has China towns, Little Italies and areas where predominantly immigrants from the same origin countries live and so does Canada. How is it different? If the idea of melting pot had any real impact, there would be more immigrant population mixing in the United States than in Canada, which is obviously not the case.
I could also say that the idea of "melting pot" is one nation out of many, and the idea of "mosaic" is many nations in one. Is it really different? At the end, two different names, same goal, same result.
Instead of attaching wiki and other links, just give me examples from REAL life showing how so-callled "mosaic" is any different from "melting pot". I could as well use "mosaic" instead of "melting pot" to describe the diversity of population of the US, and who would disagree?
I was just about to write a virtually identical message.
Policy wonks in Canada can portray the country's mosaic and multiculturalism all they want, but the situation on the ground and demographically does not lie.
Canada does fund "cultural" events for Ukrainian, Chinese, etc. communities, but it also funds events for traditional "Canadian" culture as well. Whereas the U.S. provides little funding for anybody's culture, be it that of Mayflower Pilgrims or Chaldeans...
If Canada really did do things differently than the U.S., it might today have public schools that teach in German, Ukrainian, Japanese, etc. That would make it a true alternative to the U.S. melting pot. Public broadcasting networks in these and multiple languages, etc...
Not suggesting Canada do this - just pointing out the type of stuff that would make it *truly* different from the U.S. model.
I saw a restaurant in Toronto that was selling 'Ghetto Chicken' (fried, I presume? )
I think Canadians are less politically correct but I would say maybe a bit more colour-blind. I think it's easier not to 'see color' in Canada too since in America each race has its own culture, while in Canada black people for example could be from quite a few different cultures.
on one hand, I think the US overplays the Race card but on the other hand, I think Canada is a little too nonchalant and indifferent about Race...and I although I didnt spend too long there (6 months increment for 2 yrs), I got the impression issues around race were sweeped under the rug. I mean, colleges in Canada dont even have racial breakdowns of their students???
Another way at looking at it though- is that the minority groups in America rally for more voice than their counterparts in Canada...an example is I find Asian-Americans on the US West Coast are more likely to get involved in (and be successful within) certain fields (broadcasting, politics) than their counterparts in Vancouver for instance. What I dont get is that Vancouver is a city full of Asians and last time I was there, I remember there is like 1 Asian tv news anchorwoman (who was full of herself btw)- either the Connie Chung syndrome didnt kick in up there, or the glass ceiling is even harder to break...
However I do feel "outright" racism is the least intense in Canada- out of all English-speaking countries with Australia on the other extreme, and the UK and the US in the middle.
Have you been to Australia? Australia does not have white racist groups to the extent as the USA. In addition the US south still has a lot of KKK. racist groups here in Australia are quite small and barely noticeable. Yet in the US even though it is small they ensure they are noticed due to the fact that hate speech in public is more allowed than the US. Here in Australia it is illegal to make racist statements in public yet it is not illegal to state that in your own home. Yes there was a race related riot in Sydney nearly a decade ago yet race relations are like any other major western city.
I was just about to write a virtually identical message.
Policy wonks in Canada can portray the country's mosaic and multiculturalism all they want, but the situation on the ground and demographically does not lie.
Canada does fund "cultural" events for Ukrainian, Chinese, etc. communities, but it also funds events for traditional "Canadian" culture as well. Whereas the U.S. provides little funding for anybody's culture, be it that of Mayflower Pilgrims or Chaldeans...
If Canada really did do things differently than the U.S., it might today have public schools that teach in German, Ukrainian, Japanese, etc. That would make it a true alternative to the U.S. melting pot. Public broadcasting networks in these and multiple languages, etc...
Not suggesting Canada do this - just pointing out the type of stuff that would make it *truly* different from the U.S. model.
Strange you should not mention the various television stations, available on Bell Satellite systems, Canada's largest network, of ethnic make up within the Toronto area. One can watch local news or other programs in their native language from China, India, etc., and these programs are produced right here in Canada.
Strange you should not mention the various television stations, available on Bell Satellite systems, Canada's largest network, of ethnic make up within the Toronto area. One can watch local news or other programs in their native language from China, India, etc., and these programs are produced right here in Canada.
That's very different from the U.S. model.
I said PUBLIC television networks. There is no Cantonese CBC, no Hindi CBC. That's what I meant.
And the mediasphere is indeed very similar to the U.S. You don't think there is domestically-produced programming for immigrant groups in the U.S.? Seriously?
Just in Spanish there are several made-in-the-USA networks. There is plenty of ethnic TV programming in the major U.S. cities just like OMNI offers in Toronto.
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