Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
So really the angel should have said that it is good news for a few families, or a few people, and bad news for most of humanity ....
That darned angel was playing with words wasn't he, just like Paul and Jesus ... They are just pretending that Jesus is the savior of the world, when in fact he is the destroyer of the world.
To the contrary. Both God and his angels say exactly what they mean and mean exactly what they say. The angel proclaimed the joyful news of the birth of the Messiah to the shepards. The Gospel message is for all men.
Quote:
According to your teachings God and Christ are liars and hatemongers who do not love their enemies or overcome evil with Good but instead they return infinite evil for finite evil, and are the most violent beings in the universe infinitely worse than any man who has ever existed, or they are simply failures. Because the scriptures teach God will have all men to be saved, and you say it is impossible for him to do so.
Your version of God is a weak, violent, hateful and spiteful ego maniac ...
The violent heart worships a violent God.
Selah ...
When confronted with correct Scriptural answers which you don't like, you resort to statements such as the one you just made above.
The Scriptures do not teach that God will save all men. The Scriptures state that God desires that all men be saved. The Scriptures teach that because God so loved the world He therefore provided the means by which any man can be saved IF he makes a volitional decision to place his faith in Christ whose redemptive work on the Cross propitiated God the Father.
The senselessness and foolishness of your claim that if God doesn't save everyone, then He is as you described above is shown by John 3:14-16. ''And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15] that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
That passage states without any ambiguity whatsoever, that because of God's love, He sent His Son into the world to die for the sins of the world, so that those who believe in Him, and ONLY those who believe in Him will be saved. God's desire is that all men be saved. But God's plan and purpose is to save only those who receive the offer of His free gift of salvation through faith in Christ, and to leave in eternal condemnation all who reject Christ.
To the unbelieving Jews, Jesus said the following. John 5:38 'And you do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent... 40] and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.
But God's plan and purpose is to save only those who receive the offer of His free gift of salvation through faith in Christ, and to leave in eternal condemnation all who reject Christ.
The Scriptures do not teach that God will save all men. The Scriptures state that God desires that all men be saved. The Scriptures teach that because God so loved the world He therefore provided the means by which any man can be saved IF he makes a volitional decision to place his faith in Christ whose redemptive work on the Cross propitiated God the Father.
1Ti 2:3-4
for this is right and acceptable before God our Saviour, who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth
Christ chooses us, we do not choose him. If we believe in God it is because God has given us repentance to acknowledge the truth and faith to believe. It is God who works within us to will and do what pleases him.
Phl 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Jhn 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
2Ti 2:25
in meekness instructing those opposing -- if perhaps God may give to them repentance to an acknowledging of the truth
Rom 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
Quote:
The senselessness and foolishness of your claim that if God doesn't save everyone, then He is as you described above is shown by John 3:14-16. ''And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15] that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Yes, and God is so great, and his power so potent that nothing is impossible for him, he will make it so that before all is said and done, all people will turn to him and worship him and confess Christ is lord and be saved.
If God wants to save all people and nothing is impossible for him then he can and will save all people. If he doesn't then he is to weak and is a failure, OR he is lying when he says that he will/intends to/desires to have all people saved. Its that simple.
Quote:
That passage states without any ambiguity whatsoever, that because of God's love, He sent His Son into the world to die for the sins of the world, so that those who believe in Him, and ONLY those who believe in Him will be saved. God's desire is that all men be saved. But God's plan and purpose is to save only those who receive the offer of His free gift of salvation through faith in Christ, and to leave in eternal condemnation all who reject Christ.
Yes yes yes, one everyone will believe before all is said and done. Every tongue will confess willingly and joyously in celebration and praise that Jesus is lord to the glory of the father.
You simply cant receive it because you are violent in your heart of stone and think its a good thing that most people will be tortured for eternity.
Quote:
To the unbelieving Jews, Jesus said the following. John 5:38 'And you do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent... 40] and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.
Romans 11 says that blindness "happened" to Israel in order that God could have mercy on all people. But through they are enemies of the gospel for the sake of all gentiles, they are believed of the father for the sake of election, and so when the fullness of the gentiles comes in, all Israel will be saved even though they rejected Christ and had him killed.
Again you simply cannot receive it because you believe in your heart that the idea that most people will be tortured for ever is good.
What does this prove Finn? Nothing. This says nothing about salvation being only for this life.
I agree Ilene, it says that after this life there is judgment - it seems to me that judgment has been redefined to only mean damnation even though there are 2 separate greek words for these concepts ......
What does this prove Finn? Nothing. This says nothing about salvation being only for this life.
Perhaps it would help if you could quote from the Bible where is says that a person can be saved after death.
I ask because I showed you what the Bible says about death. It said there is death, and then there is judgement. Here is what is says about the second death:
Revelation 21 "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
So, would you mind showing me the part which promises salvation after death, or anything at all with reference to salvation after death. Thank you.
Perhaps it would help if you could quote from the Bible where is says that a person can be saved after death.
I ask because I showed you what the Bible says about death. It said there is death, and then there is judgement. Here is what is says about the second death:
Revelation 21 "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
So, would you mind showing me the part which promises salvation after death, or anything at all with reference to salvation after death. Thank you.
Finn_Jarber,
Then Jesus said:
Revelation 22:15 "Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
just what are these people "outside" of .... Mr Rodgers neighborhood? ... they wish. God said: "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness" .
Who and what did Jesus say that was? Jesus said:
"those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." ... the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars"
Please...any scoffers...please scoff about the "all liars" from Revelation. I really want to show from scripture what God has classified as "all liars"......
Like I said before, the assumption is on the part of the ETer's. The Bible CLEARLY DOES NOT say salvation is limited to this life....it is the ETer's who are saying it is limited to this life. It's actually more than an assumption, it's a lie. The Bible DOES NOT teach this.
Second death mean anything to you....lake of fire...mean anything to you? Destruction/RUIN mean anything to you?
Apparently not.
Keep jumping through the hoops...because all I see, is alot of gymnastics, and not one shred of scriptural evidence.
We have, but because you and many others in this world still have a heart of stone the truth of Gods love for all and his plan and purpose of the ages to bring all things together in one in Christ and save all people cannot penetrate it. God has not yet given you a heart of flesh to receive his true purpose and the full extent of his mercy. You still believe eternal torment is a good thing because you are violent and greedy and cannot accept the truth of the scriptures and you love a lie more than the truth so you have believed a lie and are under strong delusion.
You believe even though God wants to save all people that he is not able to and thus he is a failure and you believe evil is more powerful than good and that the power of the devil to deceive is greater than the power of Christ to save. And you believe that God returns evil for evil for eternity even though he takes no pleasure even in the death of the wicked. God allows you to be deceived so that he can show his power when judgment comes upon you either in this life or after you die and the riches of his glory when he shows his mercy to you and all other violent and hate filled men and women. Only then will you be given a heart of flesh and be able to receive the true Gospel of Gods love for all and his plan for the restitution of all things in Christ, and not before. Dont worry scitamicks, one day you will be able to understand these spiritual things and repent and acknowledge the truth of the reconciliation of all things to God in Christ our lord.
Quote:
Keep dreaming. I live in reality.
God desires all people to be saved even more than we who believe in UR do because is love and mercy are so much greater even than our understanding of love and mercy. God does not have a pipe dream, god will accomplish everything he desire s to accomplish and all that pleases him will come to pass because nothing is impossible to him and his word who is Christ will not return to him void or in vain. Christ is not a failure, he came not to destroy the world but that through him the world might be saved, and he came to heal the sickness of sin in the lives of all the lost and he will not fail even though you believe he is weak and a failure and unable to get what he want most which is the salvation of all people.
Peace be with you ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 08-20-2010 at 06:19 PM..
I agree Ilene, it says that after this life there is judgment - it seems to me that judgment has been redefined to only mean damnation even though there are 2 separate greek words for these concepts ......
Exactly, when the bible explicitly teaches that Gods wrath and his judgment are for the very purpose of purification and healing and for teaching those who are so judged righteousness ...
Isa 57:17
For this is what the high and lofty One says—he who lives forever, whose name is holy:
“I live in a high and holy place,
but also with him who is contrite and lowly in spirit,
to revive the spirit of the lowly
and to revive the heart of the contrite. I will not accuse forever, nor will I always be angry, for then the spirit of man would grow faint before me—
the breath of man that I have created. I was enraged by his sinful greed; I punished him, and hid my face in anger, yet he kept on in his willful ways. I have seen his ways, but I will heal him; I will guide him and restore comfort to him,
creating praise on the lips of the mourners in Israel.
Peace, peace, to those far and near,”
says the Lord. “And I will heal them.”
Here we see that after God shows his wrath and judges the wicked with punishment and hides himself from them so that they are cast off that God doe snot judge or stay angry forever but has mercy and heals the wicked of their sinful ways and restores them to their comforts in his presence.
Isa 26:9
My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.
And here we see that the reason why God judges people is so that they will learn righteousness and not merely to cause them to suffer as fundamentalist Christians and Muslims believe.
Amen ...
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
