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To Mike, Forgive me for not quoting your post. I looked up the Greek for "should", however it never gives the singular meaning, only the meaning for "should bow" and "should confess". And in no way am I trying to debate, I just need some understanding and maybe clarification of a few things.
In the 10 & 11 verses is there a certain time in which every knee should and every tougue confess. Is it continuous now, always has or should be or only a point in time. Matt. 28:18 implies continuous because the name of Jesus always has and continues to have all power and authority.
Now if should has been changed from shall, does this imply "condition". Example; should bow , should confess because Jesus deserves all honor and glory. But not necessarily will. In no way am I trying to add or take away scripture, just truly seeking.
I have given what I found on "should and shall" below.
God Bless, Mercy
Philippians 2: 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father. KJV 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Greek-should bow
Original Word: κάμπτω
Transliteration: kamptó
Phonetic Spelling: (kamp'-to)
Short Definition: bow
Exhaust. Concordance
Word Origin
from a prim. root kamp-
Definition
to bend
NASB Word Usage
bow (3), bowed (1). Should –auxiliary verb 1. pt. of shall.
2. (used to express condition):Were he to arrive, I should be pleased.
3. must; ought (used to indicate duty, propriety, or expediency): You should not do that.
4. would (used to make a statement less direct or blunt): I should think you would apologize.
Origin:
ME sholde, OE sc ( e ) olde; see shall —Can be confused: could, should, would (see usage note at this entry ). —Synonyms
3. See must1 . —Usage note
Rules similar to those for choosing between shall and will have long been advanced for should and would, but again the rules have had little effect on usage. In most constructions, would is the auxiliary chosen regardless of the person of the subject: If our allies would support the move, we would abandon any claim to sovereignty. You would be surprised at the complexity of the directions.
Because the main function of should in modern American English is to express duty, necessity, etc. ( You should get your flu shot before winter comes ), its use for other purposes, as to form a subjunctive, can produce ambiguity, at least initially: I should get my flu shot if I were you. Furthermore, should seems an affectation to many Americans when used in certain constructions quite common in British English: Had I been informed, I should (American would ) have called immediately. I should (American would ) really prefer a different arrangement. As with shall and will, most educated native speakers of American English do not follow the textbook rule in making a choice between should and would. See also shall. Shall –auxiliary verb, present singular 1st person shall, 2nd shall or ( Archaic ) shalt, 3rd shall, present plural shall; past singular 1st person should, 2nd should or ( Archaic ) shouldst or should·est, 3rd should, past plural should; imperative, infinitive, and participles lacking. 1. plan to, intend to, or expect to: I shall go later.
2. will have to, is determined to, or definitely will: You shall do it. He shall do it.
3. (in laws, directives, etc.) must; is or are obliged to: The meetings of the council shall be public.
4. (used interrogatively in questions, often in invitations): Shall we go?
Origin:
bef. 900; ME shal, OE sceal; c. OS skal, OHG scal, ON skal; cf. G soll, D zal
—Can be confused: can, may, shall, will (see usage note at can1 ; see usage note at this entry ; see synonym note at will2 ). —Usage note
The traditional rule of usage guides dates from the 17th century and says that to denote future time shall is used in the first person ( I shall leave. We shall go ) and will in all other persons ( You will be there, won't you? He will drive us to the airport. They will not be at the meeting ). The rule continues that to express determination, will is used in the first person ( We will win the battle ) and shall in the other two persons ( You shall not bully us. They shall not pass ). Whether this rule was ever widely observed is doubtful. Today, will is used overwhelmingly in all three persons and in all types of speech and writing both for the simple future and to express determination. Shall has some use in all persons, chiefly in formal writing or speaking, to express determination: I shall return. We shall overcome. Shall also occurs in the language of laws and directives: All visitors shall observe posted regulations. Most educated native users of American English do not follow the textbook rule in making a choice between shall and will. See also should.
World English Dictionary should (ʃʊd) — vb See also shall the past tense of shall : used as an auxiliary verb to indicate that an action is considered by the speaker to be obligatory ( you should go ) or to form the subjunctive mood with I or we ( I should like to see you; if I should be late, go without me ) usage Should has, as its most common meaning in modern English, the sense ought as in I should go to the graduation, but I don't see how I can. However, the older sense of the subjunctive of shall is often used with I or we to indicate a more polite form than would: I should like to go, but I can't. In much speech and writing, should has been replaced by would in contexts of this kind, but it remains in formal English when a conditional subjunctive is used: should he choose to remain, he would be granted asylum
LOL after I posted this...
Isaiah 45:23 "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. Romans 14:11 For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
God is Good!
Mercy
Last edited by mercy777; 08-18-2010 at 08:11 PM..
Reason: Misspelled
Isaiah 45:23 "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. Romans 14:11 For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
God is Good!
Mercy
So you agree that every knew WILL bow... it isn't a choice it's a fact?? or did I misread your conclusion?
1 Tim 1:15 does not say that 'it is always trustworthy to confess Jesus as Lord'. That is a phrase of your own invention. It says the following. 'It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners...'
Jesus did come to save sinners. But apart from placing their faith in Christ they will not be saved. They will spend eternity in the lake of fire.
Salvation depends on faith in Christ. Many will never place their faith in Christ. They will be eternally lost.
Was this a smoke screen?
How is "it is always trustworthy" any different from "it is a trustworthy statement?"
It seems to me that Paul is saying (in modern English)..."You can bank on it....Christ's purpose is to save sinners."
Yet you don't seem to bank on it... in fact you deny that sinners will even be saved...
Isaiah 45:23 "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. Romans 14:11 For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
You have once again shown us that you have no clue as to what the scripture you have provided means. The tablets represent the Old Covenant, which was a ministry of death written on stone (2 Cor 3). The New Covenant, on the other hand, is the gospel of grace which brings life, and is written on our hearts (Heb 8). Just as the New Covenant was veiled and hidden in the types and shadows of the Old Covenant, so the shape of the heart can be found “hidden” in the shape of the tablets. It can be seen etched and partially chiseled out to the tablets, indicating that when the veil of Moses (that shadowy portion of the Old Covenant) is removed, the heart (New Covenant) is revealed.
I am calm, so is Mike, that I am sure of, but it is the flagrant misuse and twisting of His word, that puts us on the offence. Save your, "I love you" schpeel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercy777
To Mike, Forgive me for not quoting your post. I looked up the Greek for "should", however it never gives the singular meaning, only the meaning for "should bow" and "should confess". And in no way am I trying to debate, I just need some understanding and maybe clarification of a few things.
In the 10 & 11 verses is there a certain time in which every knee should and every tougue confess. Is it continuous now, always has or should be or only a point in time. Matt. 28:18 implies continuous because the name of Jesus always has and continues to have all power and authority.
Now if should has been changed from shall, does this imply "condition". Example; should bow , should confess because Jesus deserves all honor and glory. But not necessarily will. In no way am I trying to add or take away scripture, just truly seeking.
I have given what I found on "should and shall" below.
God Bless, Mercy
Philippians 2: 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father. KJV 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Greek-should bow
Original Word: κάμπτω
Transliteration: kamptó
Phonetic Spelling: (kamp'-to)
Short Definition: bow
Exhaust. Concordance
Word Origin
from a prim. root kamp-
Definition
to bend
NASB Word Usage
bow (3), bowed (1). Should –auxiliary verb 1. pt. of shall.
2. (used to express condition):Were he to arrive, I should be pleased.
3. must; ought (used to indicate duty, propriety, or expediency): You should not do that.
4. would (used to make a statement less direct or blunt): I should think you would apologize.
Origin:
ME sholde, OE sc ( e ) olde; see shall —Can be confused: could, should, would (see usage note at this entry ). —Synonyms 3. See must1 . —Usage note Rules similar to those for choosing between shall and will have long been advanced for should and would, but again the rules have had little effect on usage. In most constructions, would is the auxiliary chosen regardless of the person of the subject: If our allies would support the move, we would abandon any claim to sovereignty. You would be surprised at the complexity of the directions. Because the main function of should in modern American English is to express duty, necessity, etc. ( You should get your flu shot before winter comes ), its use for other purposes, as to form a subjunctive, can produce ambiguity, at least initially: I should get my flu shot if I were you. Furthermore, should seems an affectation to many Americans when used in certain constructions quite common in British English: Had I been informed, I should (American would ) have called immediately. I should (American would ) really prefer a different arrangement. As with shall and will, most educated native speakers of American English do not follow the textbook rule in making a choice between should and would. See also shall. Shall –auxiliary verb, present singular 1st person shall, 2nd shall or ( Archaic ) shalt, 3rd shall, present plural shall; past singular 1st person should, 2nd should or ( Archaic ) shouldst or should·est, 3rd should, past plural should; imperative, infinitive, and participles lacking. 1. plan to, intend to, or expect to: I shall go later.
2. will have to, is determined to, or definitely will: You shall do it. He shall do it.
3. (in laws, directives, etc.) must; is or are obliged to: The meetings of the council shall be public.
4. (used interrogatively in questions, often in invitations): Shall we go?
Origin:
bef. 900; ME shal, OE sceal; c. OS skal, OHG scal, ON skal; cf. G soll, D zal
—Can be confused: can, may, shall, will (see usage note at can1 ; see usage note at this entry ; see synonym note at will2 ). —Usage note The traditional rule of usage guides dates from the 17th century and says that to denote future time shall is used in the first person ( I shall leave. We shall go ) and will in all other persons ( You will be there, won't you? He will drive us to the airport. They will not be at the meeting ). The rule continues that to express determination, will is used in the first person ( We will win the battle ) and shall in the other two persons ( You shall not bully us. They shall not pass ). Whether this rule was ever widely observed is doubtful. Today, will is used overwhelmingly in all three persons and in all types of speech and writing both for the simple future and to express determination. Shall has some use in all persons, chiefly in formal writing or speaking, to express determination: I shall return. We shall overcome. Shall also occurs in the language of laws and directives: All visitors shall observe posted regulations. Most educated native users of American English do not follow the textbook rule in making a choice between shall and will. See also should.
World English Dictionary should (ʃʊd) — vb See also shall the past tense of shall : used as an auxiliary verb to indicate that an action is considered by the speaker to be obligatory ( you should go ) or to form the subjunctive mood with I or we ( I should like to see you; if I should be late, go without me ) usage Should has, as its most common meaning in modern English, the sense ought as in I should go to the graduation, but I don't see how I can. However, the older sense of the subjunctive of shall is often used with I or we to indicate a more polite form than would: I should like to go, but I can't. In much speech and writing, should has been replaced by would in contexts of this kind, but it remains in formal English when a conditional subjunctive is used: should he choose to remain, he would be granted asylum
I suppose the easiest thing is to simply compare Phil 2:10-11 with the other passages which state that every knee will bow and all will acknowledge that Jesus is Lord.
Isa 45:23 "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Romans 14:11 For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
In both Isa 45:23 and Romans 14:11, it is in the future tense and God has sworn that every knee WILL bow and every tongue WILL acknowledge the Lordship of Christ.
I don't know why Phil 2:10 says 'should' instead of 'will.'
The context of this verse in Phil 2 and Romans 14 is none other than believers. See Isa 45:23-25
You deceptively cite PAST the preceding verse that reveals the audience being addressed . . . typical tactic of the "Liars for Bible God."
Isaiah 45:22-25 (King James Version)
22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
25In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
What about "all the ends of the earth" limits this to believers, sciota?
The context of this verse in Phil 2 and Romans 14 is none other than believers. See Isa 45:23-25
So, Isaiah is for unbelievers also because v45:22 says...
Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other
Phil. 2-believers, yes
Romans 14-believers, yes
God Bless you Sciotamicks, I needed that perspective of who the Lord is speaking to.
Mercy
LIES. Hideous LIES. You lie like a rug Ironmaw. LIAR.
WOW ... Talk about an emotionally charged response!
Lie like a rug? That's funny! ...
Let God be true, and every man a liar ... But i am not lying about this ...
Quote:
Now I have seen it all from you. You truly are a piece of work Ironmaw.
No you haven't, there is plenty more where that came from. Im full of surprises ...
Quote:
Let's begin with one.
And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
True, but the word there translated eternal is an erroneous translation, it is "aionios" and it means pertaining to the ages ...
Here is a better translation ...
"and this is the testimony, that life age-during did God give to us, and this -- the life -- is in His Son; he who is having the Son, hath the life; he who is not having the Son of God -- the life he hath not."
So long as one does not believe and confess Christ, they do not have aionios life, because aionios life is to know the father and Christ whom he sent.
Quote:
Would you like me to continue? Why not?
Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Indeed, and the gates remain open at all times so that if any who are outside thirst they may enter and drink of the water of life ...
Quote:
More?
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.
yes, that is true also, and they will be purified thereby and will come to a knowledge of the truth and be saved. Just as God desires them to ... God always gets what he wants, because he is god and he works all things out according to the counsel of his own will.
Quote:
Let's keep going shall we?
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Yes, this is the judgment of nations, not the judgment of the dead ... These are the people who are still alive at the return of Christ(which you do not believe will ever literally happen, but is only symbolic of 70 AD.)
Again, the better translation is ...
"Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers"
Quote:
Would you like to have a debate again in Koine?
I would personally love to.
I am not interested in vain disputations with you, or vain competitions of who is smarter or more educated. I'm sure your ego is big enough for the both of us ...
Quote:
Let's keep going shall we?
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Yes, if we do not believe in Christ we are under the law and by the law we are all condemned. But we were all condemned before we believed, but when the spirit moved in us to will and do God pleasure and we were given repentance to acknowledge the truth and faith to believe, we come out from under condemnation and were saved. And so will all people, as will be testified in due time. For all will be made one together in Christ, and the grace given by God in Christ will abound wherever the curse of death because of sin abounds, and much more abundantly, for as in Adam all die, so in Christ will all be made alive.
Quote:
Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
Again a better translation is ...
"Every one who is hating his brother -- a man-killer he is, and ye have known that no man-killer hath life age-during in him remaining"
Quote:
And to close your lying words off with a eternal seal:
And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.
Indeed, if Christ is not risen from the dead we are all still in our sins, and our faith in Christ is vain.
Of course i dont know what this has to do with the debate, but whatever ...
Quote:
You need to heed the words of Christ Ironmaw, or you too will be subject to His wrath, I am seriously warning you. You are on the edge.
Repent for the words you have just said here....please.
Oh Sciotamicks, your warnings and threats are empty, and they only provoke me to greater desire to spread the truth of the restoration of all things. I am glad to be threatened for the sake of the glory of the love of God in Christ for all people and his plan to have all people saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
I repent of nothing i have said, but i will say it again, the doctrine of Eternal torment is a pagan myth, and lie from the pit of the mythical hell. And the doctrine is not taught in the original Greek scriptures.
May God have mercy on us all, including you Sciotamicks ...
God bless ...
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) shalt, 3rd shall, present plural shall; past singular 1st person should, 2nd should or ( Archaic 
