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You have no idea what you are talking about. When you dismiss the Bible as the word of God you are dismissing God. The highest form of worshiping God is through learning His word. That is how you come to know God.
Learning His Word means learning to know Jesus who is the living Word of God! THAT is how you come to know God. The Bible is USEFUL for instruction in righteousness . . . NOT understanding God.
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That means learning and understanding the doctrines and principles that are communicated to believers through the written word of God. The Holy Spirit who indwells the believer in Christ, and ONLY the believer in Christ, works with the Bible doctrine that has been transferred from the Bible into the soul of the believer. If there is no Bible doctrine then the Holy Spirit has nothing with which to work.
That is elitist, separatist, and exclusivist nonsense designed to "tickle the ears" of those who would be "special." The Holy Spirit indwells us ALL . . . we just do not all acknowledge or listen to Him . . . even those who claim to be Christians. They are blinded by their twisted precepts and doctrines of men. It seems you are so bolluxed up that you think the Holy Spirit is impotent without your "written in ink" dogmas.Sad . . . so very sad. Do you forget the Holy Spirit is God?
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You are implying that the written word of God kills. It is the letter of the law that kills. Not the Bible.
It is the reading of the letter and ignoring the Spirit of the words that has led the mainstream churches into disastrous blasphemy and false teachings for over 2000 years. The descriptions of the OT Jehovah are primitive interpretations that are wrong. Jesus is the ONLY example of the mind and nature of God. Fear corrupts and kills love. Your false teachings from reading the letter (instead of the Spirit) of the words instills fear . . . destroying the PURE love of God that should be there.
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It is you who keep referring back to the Old Testament and the Law. And you fail to understand that the New Testament Scriptures speak of Christ and the doctrines that apply to the church-age believer. And you further fail to understand that the Old Testament Scriptures pointed the way to Christ who was to come.
Any believer who knows anything about universalism knows that it is a Satanic lie. You and those like you are being used by Satan to distort the Gospel and offer a false hope that all will be saved, when in fact there are going to be many who are going to spend eternity in the lake of fire because they did not receive Jesus Christ as Savior. Universalists understand nothing of God's character.
I fail to understand nothing!The term "New Testament" dates to Tertullian in the second century or Lactantius in the third. Lactantius:
"But all Scripture is divided into two Testaments. That which preceded the advent and passion of Christ—that is, the law and the prophets—is called the Old; but those things which were written after His resurrection are named the New Testament."
The term "new covenant" is in the Bible. Among other places it can be found in Luke 22:20
This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you
and Hebrews 9:15
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
Galatians 3:23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Rom 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Galatian 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself
The origin of "New Testament" comes from that.
The OT was necessary to establish the expectation of Jesus and predict the way His life and death would occur and the impact He would have for millennia. Jesus fulfilled all the expectations of His day and for every day since for 2000+ years. That is what fulfilling the OT means and that is what validates Christianity. The veil of ignorance that blinded our ancestors to God's TRUE NATURE from the misinterpretations of the OT was lifted by Jesus and His example and teaching. It has no further role in understanding God . . . only righteousness and providing hope . . . Jesus is the TRUE NATURE of God . . . not the heinous misunderstandings of the OT. The prophesies being fulfilled for 2000+ years despite the errors in the OT are sufficient validation.
All those heinous things attributed to God in the OT were no part of God . . . they were evil . . . and only humans do evil. Satan's biggest weapon is human ignorance and convincing humans that to be ignorant is what God wants and prefers is a major success. Satan has convinced the ignorant that fear of God is what God wants because it eliminates any PURE love of God and each other. It perpetuates the primitive motivation of fear of wrath and punishment . . . instead of God's loving concern and desire for us to avoid the natural consequences of our failure to mature spiritually. These heinous beliefs in scripture are proof positive that Satan is alive and well in the world and has been since the death of Jesus . . . who came to do away with such primitive impressions of God. I weep for those who will probably hear . . ."Depart from me . . ." when they were only trying to follow God by exalting ignorance as a virtue of their Faith.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 09-07-2010 at 05:42 PM..
Learning His Word means learning to know Jesus who is the living Word of God! THAT is how you come to know God. The Bible is USEFUL for instruction in righteousness . . . NOT understanding God. That is elitist, separatist, and exclusivist nonsense designed to "tickle the ears" of those who would be "special." The Holy Spirit indwells us ALL . . . we just do not all acknowledge or listen to Him . . . even those who claim to be Christians. They are blinded by their twisted precepts and doctrines of men. It seems you are so bolluxed up that you think the Holy Spirit is impotent without your "written in ink" dogmas.Sad . . . so very sad. Do you forget the Holy Spirit is God? It is the reading of the letter and ignoring the Spirit of the words that has led the mainstream churches into disastrous blasphemy and false teachings for over 2000 years. The descriptions of the OT Jehovah are primitive interpretations that are wrong. Jesus is the ONLY example of the mind and nature of God. Fear corrupts and kills love. Your false teachings from reading the letter (instead of the Spirit) of the words instills fear . . . destroying the PURE love of God that should be there. I fail to understand nothing!The term "New Testament" dates to Tertullian in the second century or Lactantius in the third. Lactantius:
"But all Scripture is divided into two Testaments. That which preceded the advent and passion of Christ—that is, the law and the prophets—is called the Old; but those things which were written after His resurrection are named the New Testament."
The term "new covenant" is in the Bible. Among other places it can be found in Luke 22:20
This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you
and Hebrews 9:15
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
Galatians 3:23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Rom 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Galatian 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself
The origin of "New Testament" comes from that.
The OT was necessary to establish the expectation of Jesus and predict the way His life and death would occur and the impact He would have for millennia. Jesus fulfilled all the expectations of His day and for every day since for 2000+ years. That is what fulfilling the OT means and that is what validates Christianity. The veil of ignorance that blinded our ancestors to God's TRUE NATURE from the misinterpretations of the OT was lifted by Jesus and His example and teaching. It has no further role in understanding God . . . only righteousness and providing hope . . . Jesus is the TRUE NATURE of God . . . not the heinous misunderstandings of the OT. The prophesies being fulfilled for 2000+ years despite the errors in the OT are sufficient validation.
All those heinous things attributed to God in the OT were no part of God . . . they were evil . . . and only humans do evil. Satan's biggest weapon is human ignorance and convincing humans that to be ignorant is what God wants and prefers is a major success. Satan has convinced the ignorant that fear of God is what God wants because it eliminates any PURE love of God and each other. It perpetuates the primitive motivation of fear of wrath and punishment . . . instead of God's loving concern and desire for us to avoid the natural consequences of our failure to mature spiritually. These heinous beliefs in scripture are proof positive that Satan is alive and well in the world and has been since the death of Jesus . . . who came to do away with such primitive impressions of God. I weep for those who will probably hear . . ."Depart from me . . ." when they were only trying to follow God by exalting ignorance as a virtue of their Faith.
As I said, you understand nothing. The Old Testament didn't misrepresent anything. God's revelation is progressive and what He revealed in the Old Testament was truthful. As I said, it pointed to the coming of Christ. Each of the animal sacrifices had a specific function as a picture of the redemptive work of Christ. Furthermore, the Old Testament delt primarily with God's dealings with Israel. The purpose of the Law was to demonstrate that man can't meet God's requirements and needs a Savior.
The nonsense you wrote in your first paragraph shows your ignorance and your rejection of Scripture. The purpose for learning and understanding Bible doctrine is to come to know God. To understand Him. 2 Peter 3:18 'but grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.' 2 Tim 2:15 'Study to show yourself approved unto God a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
The Holy Spirit does NOT indwell the unbeliever. As I said, you are involved in some kind of new age belief system. This indicates that you are not Christian at all. It would appear that the Jesus you claim to believe in is not the Jesus of the Bible, but is a false Jesus. One who cannot save because he doesn't exist. And being a universalist further demonstrates that you have no understanding of God.
And why do you keep harping on the law? Have I not told you that the New Testament Scriptures contain the doctrines that pertain to the church-age? And have I not said that the Holy Spirit only makes use of the doctrines that a believer transfers into his soul? The Holy Spirit does not guide the believer apart from the content of Bible doctrine that has been metabolized into the soul of the believer
You with your intellectual snobbery continue to speak of others ignorance. But for ignorance of the word of God, you need only look in your own mirror.
Last edited by Michael Way; 09-07-2010 at 06:56 PM..
As I said, you understand nothing. The Old Testament didn't misrepresent anything. God's revelation is progressive and what He revealed in the Old Testament was truthful. As I said, it pointed to the coming of Christ. Each of the animal sacrifices had a specific function as a picture of the redemptive work of Christ. Furthermore, the Old Testament delt primarily with God's dealings with Israel. The purpose of the Law was to demonstrate that man can't meet God's requirements and needs a Savior.
The nonsense you wrote in your first paragraph shows your ignorance and your rejection of Scripture. The purpose for learning and understanding Bible doctrine is to come to know God. To understand Him. 2 Peter 3:18 'but grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.' 2 Tim 2:15 'Study to show yourself approved unto God a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
The Holy Spirit does NOT indwell the unbeliever. As I said, you are involved in some kind of new age belief system. This indicates that you are not Christian at all. It would appear that the Jesus you claim to believe in is not the Jesus of the Bible, but is a false Jesus. One who cannot save because he doesn't exist. And being a universalist further demonstrates that you have no understanding of God.
And why do you keep harping on the law? Have I not told you that the New Testament Scriptures contain the doctrines that pertain to the church-age? And have I not said that the Holy Spirit only makes use of the doctrines that a believer transfers into his soul? The Holy Spirit does not guide the believer apart from the content of Bible doctrine that has been metabolized into the soul of the believer
You with your intellectual snobbery continue to speak of others ignorance. But for ignorance of the word of God, you need only look in your own mirror.
As you have repeatedly said . . . but fail to ever support or back up with anything substantive. You spout the rote dogma of your masters and mentors without any real thought or understanding. You give the impression of one who cannot think for himself.
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The Old Testament didn't misrepresent anything.
It completely misrepresented the nature and motives of God. Jesus revealed the true motives and nature of God.
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God's revelation is progressive and what He revealed in the Old Testament was truthful. As I said, it pointed to the coming of Christ.
No one is disputing the truth in the OT . . . it validates Christ . . . but it is a primitive misinterpretation of God and His motives.
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Each of the animal sacrifices had a specific function as a picture of the redemptive work of Christ.
No. It was a primitive and savage misunderstanding of the concept of self-sacrifice . . . which is how we misinterpreted the real lesson of self-control of our selfish drives.
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Furthermore, the Old Testament delt primarily with God's dealings with Israel. The purpose of the Law was to demonstrate that man can't meet God's requirements and needs a Savior.
This is accurate . . . no human was able to achieve the perfect agape love sufficient to motivate the kind of self-control necessary to override even our pain avoidance and survival drives . . . except Jesus.
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The nonsense you wrote in your first paragraph shows your ignorance and your rejection of Scripture. The purpose for learning and understanding Bible doctrine is to come to know God. To understand Him.
2 Peter 3:18 'but grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.' 2 Tim 2:15 'Study to show yourself approved unto God a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Again . . . just bluster and bloviating without substance. The only one exhibiting ignorance (and apparently reveling in it) is you. The purpose of the scriptures is to provide hope and to be USEFUL for instruction in righteousness . . . NOT to understand God. That understanding is "written in our hearts" and we have the Holy Spirit to aid us in learning it. (ANYTHING that we know in our heart is evil . . . is evil no matter WHO does it.)
1 Corinthians 2:16 (King James Version)
16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
The ONLY way to know God is to know Jesus . . . and His example and teaching is unambiguous . . . plus He abides with us and we have His Holy Spirit within to guide us.
1 John 2:27 (King James Version)
27But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.
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The Holy Spirit does NOT indwell the unbeliever. As I said, you are involved in some kind of new age belief system. This indicates that you are not Christian at all. It would appear that the Jesus you claim to believe in is not the Jesus of the Bible, but is a false Jesus. One who cannot save because he doesn't exist. And being a universalist further demonstrates that you have no understanding of God.
The irony of this is so overwhelming I can't even begin to point out all of its ramifications. You are not following the Holy Spirit within . . . you are rejecting it in favor of the indoctrination and dogma you have been brainwashed with by men. That is the true blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Your fascination and obsession with New Age silliness and your desire to be "special" and among the elite true Christians is NOT the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
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And why do you keep harping on the law? Have I not told you that the New Testament Scriptures contain the doctrines that pertain to the church-age? And have I not said that the Holy Spirit only makes use of the doctrines that a believer transfers into his soul? The Holy Spirit does not guide the believer apart from the content of Bible doctrine that has been metabolized into the soul of the believer.
What an impotent, limited and pathetic Holy Spirit you believe in. The Holy Spirit I "believe on" is omnipotent.
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You with your intellectual snobbery continue to speak of others ignorance. But for ignorance of the word of God, you need only look in your own mirror.
I will let my posts speak to my knowledge of the Word of God . . . while you continue to parade your acceptance of the primitive ignorance of our ancestors as a badge of courage and Faith.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 09-07-2010 at 08:30 PM..
As you have repeatedly said . . . but fail to ever support or back up with anything substantive. You spout the rote dogma of your masters and mentors without any real thought or understanding. You give the impression of one who cannot think for himself. It completely misrepresented the nature and motives of God. Jesus revealed the true motives and nature of God. No one is disputing the truth in the OT . . . it validates Christ . . . but it is a primitive misinterpretation of God and His motives. No. It was a primitive and savage misunderstanding of the concept of self-sacrifice . . . which is how we misinterpreted the real lesson of self-control of our selfish drives. This is accurate . . . no human was able to achieve the perfect agape love sufficient to motivate the kind of self-control necessary to override even our pain avoidance and survival drives . . . except Jesus. Again . . . just bluster and bloviating without substance. The only one exhibiting ignorance (and apparently reveling in it) is you. The purpose of the scriptures is to provide hope and to be USEFUL for instruction in righteousness . . . NOT to understand God. That understanding is "written in our hearts" and we have the Holy Spirit to aid us in learning it. (ANYTHING that we know in our heart is evil . . . is evil no matter WHO does it.)
1 Corinthians 2:16 (King James Version)
16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
The ONLY way to know God is to know Jesus . . . and His example and teaching is unambiguous . . . plus He abides with us and we have His Holy Spirit within to guide us.
1 John 2:27 (King James Version)
27But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him. The irony of this is so overwhelming I can't even begin to point out all of its ramifications. You are not following the Holy Spirit within . . . you are rejecting it in favor of the indoctrination and dogma you have been brainwashed with by men. That is the true blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Your fascination and obsession with New Age silliness and your desire to be "special" and among the elite true Christians is NOT the fruit of the Holy Spirit. What an impotent, limited and pathetic Holy Spirit you believe in. The Holy Spirit I "believe on" is omnipotent.I will let my posts speak to my knowledge of the Word of God . . . while you continue to parade your acceptance of the primitive ignorance of our ancestors as a badge of courage and Faith.
I'm not going to keep going back and forth with you in your childish immature tantrums. Your posts show your ignorance and any straight thinking Christian can see that. The only people who pay any attention to the junk you post are the other universalists.
But what I am going to do is call you out on this statement that you made.
Here is what I said.
''Each of the animal sacrifices had a specific function as a picture of the redemptive work of Christ.''
Here was your absurd reply.
''No. It was a primitive and savage misunderstanding of the concept of self-sacrifice . . . which is how we misinterpreted the real lesson of self-control of our selfish drives''.
Now, I challenge you to back up your statement with cold hard fact. Prove that the animal sacrifices were nothing but a primitive and savage misunderstanding of the concept of self-sacrifice as you put it. Demonstrate that the animal sacrifices weren't instituted by God as a picture of the redemptive work of Christ on the Cross. Back up your statement with proof. Do it or remain silent about things of which you know nothing.
Last edited by Michael Way; 09-08-2010 at 12:18 AM..
I'm not going to keep going back and forth with you in your childish immature tantrums. Your posts show your ignorance and any straight thinking Christian can see that. The only people who pay any attention to the junk you post are the other universalists.
But what I am going to do is call you out on this statement that you made.
Here is what I said.
''Each of the animal sacrifices had a specific function as a picture of the redemptive work of Christ.''
Here was your absurd reply.
''No. It was a primitive and savage misunderstanding of the concept of self-sacrifice . . . which is how we misinterpreted the real lesson of self-control of our selfish drives''.
Now, I challenge you to back up your statement with cold hard fact. Prove that the animal sacrifices were nothing but a primitive and savage misunderstanding of the concept of self-sacrifice as you put it. Demonstrate that the animal sacrifices weren't instituted by God as a picture of the redemptive work of Christ on the Cross. Back up your statement with proof. Do it or remain silent about things of which you know nothing.
Take an ESPECIALLY hard look at Matthew 12:7...................
Hosea 6:6. For I desire mercy (love), not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.
Matthew 12:7If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,'you would not have condemned the innocent.
Mark 12:33. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
Isaiah 1:11. "The multitude of your sacrifices--what are they to me?" says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
Take an ESPECIALLY hard look at Matthew 12:7...................
Hosea 6:6. For I desire mercy (love), not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.
Matthew 12:7If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,'you would not have condemned the innocent.
Mark 12:33. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
Isaiah 1:11. "The multitude of your sacrifices--what are they to me?" says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
The animal sacrifices had a purpose. I have challenged mysticphd to back up his claim that they didn't. Stay out of it.
Take an ESPECIALLY hard look at Matthew 12:7...................
Hosea 6:6. For I desire mercy (love), not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.
Matthew 12:7If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,'you would not have condemned the innocent.
Mark 12:33. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
Isaiah 1:11. "The multitude of your sacrifices--what are they to me?" says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
The animal sacrifices had a purpose. I have challenged mysticphd to back up his claim that they didn't. Stay out of it.
Herefornow did an excellent job of addressing your absurd and childish challenge. But the primitive misunderstanding of what God wants from us began in the earliest and most savage stages of human existence. Even in Genesis . . . the inanity of this sacrifice nonsense was obvious. Here supposedly all life on earth has been destroyed and the only remnants are with Noah. So what does the idiot do in our species youthful ignorance . . . he sacrifices some of them . . . after being told to let them be fruitful and multiply!! If you are unable to see the stupidity in this . . . you do not think rationally about these things.
Genesis 8:17-21 (King James Version)
17Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.
18And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:
19Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.
20And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
This is a direct acknowledgment by God that our species was not matured sufficiently to recognize the absurdity of such pointless sacrifices, especially under the conditions. Sacrifices to gods are an ancient and primitive stupidity that characterizes the earliest efforts of humankind to relate to God. It would be pointless to try to disabuse you of this ancient stupidity . . . since you have envinced a tendency to believe in magic and rote adherence to primitive dogma. When you indicate a willingness and ability to actually think for yourself about these issues . . . let me know.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 09-08-2010 at 10:53 AM..
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