Salvation is only Through the Gospel of Jesus Christ (believers, Holy Spirit, mystic)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

Salvation is only Through the Gospel of Jesus Christ which is only found in the Bible.

I agree. Salvation is only through the gospel of Jesus Christ. That said, I see two problems with the rest of your statement, twin.spin.

(1) How do you know it's found only in the Bible? If this is the case, it stands to reason that the Bible itself would say so, which it doesn't.

(2) Where does the Bible describe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as being a single "essence"? It doesn't, and yet you believe they are. Obviously, you got this doctrine from some non-biblical source. If the gospel of Jesus Christ is found only in the Bible, why would you believe something about God and Jesus Christ that is not found in the Bible?

I'm afraid you can't have it both ways.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by ahigherway

I wanted to add something to my previous post, and it is this:

2 Tim. 2:15 , the word "study to shew thyself.." is not in reading the scriptures night and day. It is Paul's recommendation to strive towards pleasing God.
Phillips reads like this: "[SIZE=2] For yourself, concentrate on winning God's approval, on being a workman with nothing to be ashamed of, and who knows how to use the word of truth to the best advantage.[/SIZE]"

Other translations should make it still clearer.
Handling the Word of God is knowing how to hear His Voice within us, speaking to us daily.
The other day, I was riding a bus, and I saw a car swerve out in front, apparently he didn't want to wait for the bus to pass before turning.
The Lord showed me through this, how the flesh of man is always present to tempt man to do things which are not of the Spirit, even to our own detriment. That man could've been seriously injured or killed, and all because of the temptations of the flesh/serpent which we at times heed to. Fallen man is drawn this way and that, all by the serpent which beguiles us. Only the Anointing can break the yoke. (Even the believer may at times yield to this voice, but it must be discerned.) The son of perdition vs. the Son of God.

So we must strive or "study" daily to hear Christ in us, and wait upon Him to finish His perfect work in us.

Blessings!
brian

No one suggested that 2 Tim 2:15 means that you are to study night and day. It does mean to study regularily.

And it is not a recommendation from Paul. It is a command from God. The word study is in the imperative. It is a command.

2 Peter 3:18 is a command as well. ''but grow in grace and in knowledge of our Lord and Svior Jesus Christ.' The word 'grow' is in the imperative.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by ahigherway

Blessings to you, Mike!
brian

I can barely make out what you wrote because of the color you chose. It is too washed out on my screen.

But you said something about scholars who though not now believing in Christ, will someday.

Don't count on it. It is a matter of human volition. Many scholars are not saved and never will be because they will never believe in Christ. Their knowledge is strictly an academic knowledge and they will never believe it.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I agree. Salvation is only through the gospel of Jesus Christ. That said, I see two problems with the rest of your statement, twin.spin.

(1) How do you know it's found only in the Bible? If this is the case, it stands to reason that the Bible itself would say so, which it doesn't.

answer: Because Jesus says it does.


(2) Where does the Bible describe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as being a single "essence"? It doesn't, and yet you believe they are.

answer: The Bible does say so. Somethings are learned "percept upon precept". Many a time you've been shown and you reject it.



The Father is called God
The Son is called God .......... not a god
The Holy Spirit is called God ...... not a god

Yet there is only one God
And this fullness of the deity lives in bodly form ... Jesus

Obviously, you got this doctrine from some non-biblical source. If the gospel of Jesus Christ is found only in the Bible, why would you believe something about God and Jesus Christ that is not found in the Bible?

answer: What is obvious, is that it's not obvious for you. I can't force you to not read the Bible from the perspective you have.

Even if I do ... (which I don't) but suppose I did, why would that be a problem, don't you get doctrines from non-biblical sources? Like you said...

"you can't have it both ways"


I'm afraid you can't have it both ways.

"why would you believe something about God and Jesus Christ that is not found in the Bible?"

I don't know.... you tell me.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

"why would you believe something about God and Jesus Christ that is not found in the Bible?"

I don't know.... you tell me.

I can easily tell you why I believe things about God and Christ that are not found in the Bible. I have never claimed that the Bible is the only record we have of God's word, and readily acknowledge that there are other writings that are equally as reliable. You, on the other hand, believe things that are not in the Bible even though you insist that the Bible should be our only source of information on God and Christ. That sounds very contradictory to me. I'm guessing this is going to be your best attempt at answering my question. I've got to say, I'm not really impressed.

[Katzpur]

I just spotted the rest of your answer, embedded in what you quoted me as having said. It makes posting a reply a bit of a challenge. I guess we'll have to start over. I asked how you know that the gospel of Jesus Christ is found only in the Bible. You answered:

answer: Because Jesus says it does.

Where? I wasn't aware of anywhere in the Bible where Jesus even mentions the Bible. Since the New Testament hadn't even been written at that time, this isn't too surprising. It sounds to me as if you're saying that Jesus said: "Well, see there are a bunch of people who will record my words, write epistles, describe the acts of the apostles and recount an apocalyptic vision. Somebody will compile these, making sure to leave out anything I don't want included and being certain to include everything else. This isn't going to happen for several hundred years, and there will be a whole lot of debate as to what should and shouldn't be there. Anyway, once all is said and done, don't believe anything that's not in that book."

I asked where the Bible describes the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as being a single "essence." You answered:

answer: The Bible does say so.

Somethings are learned "percept upon precept". Many a time you've been shown and you reject it.

That's absolutely false. Nobody has ever shown me a passage of scripture that describes the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as being a single essence. Nobody has done that because there is no such passage, and your insisting otherwise is pointless if you can't provide evidence to support your claim. The Bible and the Book of Mormon both describe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as being "one God," but nowhere in scripture are we told that they are a single essence or substance. They are clearly said to be "one God," but not in the way you insist is the case. This has nothing to do with "precept upon precept." It has everything to do with your belief in creeds which didn't even exist until several hundred years after the biblical texts were written, and your insistance that it's required of a Christian to accept these creeds, but heretical for people to accept any other non-biblical sources.

Then you said:

answer: What is obvious, is that it's not obvious for you.

That's for darned sure.

Even if I do ... (which I don't) but suppose I did, why would that be a problem, don't you get doctrines from non-biblical sources?

Absolutely, but I don't have to contradict myself in the process.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I just spotted the rest of your answer, embedded in what you quoted me as having said. It makes posting a reply a bit of a challenge. I guess we'll have to start over. I asked how you know that the gospel of Jesus Christ is found only in the Bible. You answered:

Where? I wasn't aware of anywhere in the Bible where Jesus even mentions the Bible.

just what do you think Jesus was speaking of when he used the word "scriptures"....

1)

Matthew 21:42
"Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures ..."

Luke 24:27
"And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he [Jesus] expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself."

Matthew 22:29
"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God." [Jesus here revealing that scriptures teach there is no marriage in heaven ... "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures" -

2)

God reveals through Peter (which makes Peter's epistles God's Word) that Paul's writings were scripture. (That is a very good portion of the NT).

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


John 20:31 God reveals that what John recieved is good enough for salvation.

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I asked where the Bible describes the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as being a single "essence." You answered:

The Father is called God
The Son is called God .......... not a god
The Holy Spirit is called God ...... not a god

Yet there is only one God
And this fullness of the deity lives in bodly form ...

These are all based on Bible verses.


For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, NIV Colossians 2:9

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily KJV
Colossians 2:9

Originally Posted by Katzpur

That's absolutely false. Nobody has ever shown me a passage of scripture that describes the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as being a single essence.

Not true. Other people have besides myself.
There has been many passages and posts.

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, NIV Colossians 2:9

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily KJV
Colossians 2:9

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Nobody has done that because there is no such passage, and your insisting otherwise is pointless if you can't provide evidence to support your claim. The Bible and the Book of Mormon both describe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as being "one God," but nowhere in scripture are we told that they are a single essence or substance.

Not true. People have besides myself.
The Bible teaches 3 distinct persons - 1 God

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily KJV

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, NIV Colossians 2:9

Jesus once said that even if the unbelieving were to get their wish and have a dead person rise, they still wouldn't believe. Jesus said a person has God's Word the Bible, that's good enough for salvation John 20:31

Originally Posted by Katzpur

They are clearly said to be "one God," but not in the way you insist is the case.

Nor am I going to relinquish that. That is because it's who God is, and to believe otherwise is to believe falsely about him. As I said before, God revealed who he is in the bible:
3 distinct persons - 1 God
in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

Originally Posted by Katzpur

This has nothing to do with "precept upon precept." It has everything to do with your belief in creeds which didn't even exist until several hundred years after the biblical texts were written, and your insistance that it's required of a Christian to accept these creeds, but heretical for people to accept any other non-biblical sources.

Incorrect.
"3 distinct persons - 1 God ....in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" was written before the creeds.

The creeds were written as apologies of the true Christian faith in response to false teachings popular at the time. They are a summarization of truths from God's Word, nothing more. Anytime other non-biblical sources conflict with the Bible, those sources are false, not the Bible. For people to be considered a Christian it is required to believe what God revealed from the Bible. It is "heretical for people to accept any other non-biblical sources" when those sources are held equal to or higher than scripture or Jesus.

Luther opposed much about RC for that reason...not so much because "he was right" and "they were wrong" or that he hated RC. It was rather a simple conviction that other sources conflicted with the truth of scripture..the Bible. "Saved by grace through faith" haunted Luther. He finally came to see the beauty of that message and he wasn't willing to rescind from that position, no matter how much false accusations were levied and\or censorship by the authorities.

"There is nothing new under the sun" and today is no different. I stand with Luther's position and am not willing to rescind from that opinion either....knowing full well of the small but concerted behind the scenes effort to get certian like myself people silenced.

The question is...is it worth the risk (like Luther had to decide) to continue anymore dialog with those who have no intentions to converse with me for no other purpose than that so others who have common interests can report false accusations?

[ahigherway]

Originally Posted by Mike555

No one suggested that 2 Tim 2:15 means that you are to study night and day. It does mean to study regularily.

And it is not a recommendation from Paul. It is a command from God. The word study is in the imperative. It is a command.

2 Peter 3:18 is a command as well. ''but grow in grace and in knowledge of our Lord and Svior Jesus Christ.' The word 'grow' is in the imperative.

Yes, to "grow" seems accurate to me. But to "study," means not to study as in bible study, but to work towards something. In this case, working towards pleasing God in everything. This seems to me a better translation of 2 Tim 2:15.

Sorry about the character color, I realized too late that it read poorly.
All mankind has a darkened understanding to some degree. And the church will not give their stamp of approval to many who are walking in righteousness, even though they do not go to church. This is wrong, imo.
If someone does something good, they are knowing God, because God is good. The devil cannot do good, nor speak truth, nor give joy. So all good things come from God, and nobody has exclusive rights to Him, since we are all connected to Him by our very existence.
I believe He will save all, because I don't believe that the devil can win out over Him in any way.

Blessings!
brian

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

just what do you think Jesus was speaking of when he used the word "scriptures"....

Well, (*duh*) He was speaking of the sacred writings known at the time, which would have been the writings of the Old Testament. If you're going to say that the only scriptures are what Jesus was referring to as scripture, you're going to have to throw out the entire New Testament, because He definitely was NOT talking about the New Testament.

God reveals through Peter (which makes Peter's epistles God's Word) that Paul's writings were scripture. (That is a very good portion of the NT).

Very true, but these were obviously not what Jesus was referring to. And nowhere do any of the New Testament writings say there would be no further communication from God.

John 20:31 God reveals that what John recieved is good enough for salvation.

Salvation, yes. Exaltation, no. (In other words, if you're into Fords and Chevys, you're set.)

The Bible teaches 3 distinct persons - 1 God

I know it does. It teaches three distinct persons, one God. Not one substance. Not one essence.

The creeds were written as apologies of the true Christian faith in response to false teachings popular at the time. They are a summarization of truths from God's Word, nothing more.

If they are nothing more than a summarization, then the original source (the Bible) should contain all of the detail. The creeds are far more than a summation of what's in the Bible.

Anytime other non-biblical sources conflict with the Bible, those sources are false, not the Bible. For people to be considered a Christian it is required to believe what God revealed from the Bible.

I agree. But it's impossible for non-biblical sources to conflict with the Bible when they teach about things on which the Bible is silent. You can't contradict something that's not there!

It is "heretical for people to accept any other non-biblical sources" when those sources are held equal to or higher than scripture or Jesus.

All you're saying is that God only spoke to people living in one small part of the world. I suppose that this must mean he must not have loved the people in other parts of the world as much. I wonder why. If God or Jesus speaks, it doesn't matter who they speak to or what by what title the book is called. God's word is God's word. God's word is scripture. You're trying to say that only some of what He said should be believed, and that the rest should be rejected. Sorry, I'll go for the whole package myself.

[ahigherway]

I agree that the teachings of Jesus ended with His crucifixion. In fact, it was only the beginning!!

But if the church is teaching you that Jesus is no longer speaking to you, then how can you ever hear Him???
And so again we see, that they annul Christ through their doctrines..

Blessings,
brian