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I said, since the bible has been tested and proved accurate on the things that can be tested, then we trust those writters of history on the things that cannot be tested!
You have NOTHING BUT A BOOK OF HERESAY....written decades AFTER THE ALLEGED FACTS....the authors of the gospels are UNKNOWN!!! Names were attributed to them by the church fathers....but we have NO CLUE who actually wrote them. There isn't one ACTUAL EYE WITNESS ACCOUNT.
Provide us with JUST ONE account from a contemporary historian (a historian who was alive as the same time as Jesus)....JUST ONE....if you can....because we ALL KNOW THERE ISN'T ANY....NADA, ZIP, ZILCH, ZERO!!! Perhaps you should remove your blinders, for just a few seconds, so that you can clearly see that comparative historians wrote about the most MUNDANE FACTS and yet......NOT ONE SENTENCE ABOUT JESUS.....who allegedly had the multitudes following him....THESE ARE THE FACTS!!!!!
What historical proof do we have that Washington crossed the Delaware in 1776? A painting made in 1851? No, eyewitness accounts to the fact. Other documentation that corroborates the event. The same is with the walking on water. Eye witnesses reccorded the event. The silence of opposition even supports this. But we can prove many things that were reccorded by these eye witnesses. The result is for us to either trust these witnesses or not, but based on testing them, they are trustworthy. The same is with any court of law, the witnesses are tested. If they are tested and found trustworthy their testimonies are used. And just like a court of law we don't expect to find physical evidence of everything they say, for the courts know that evidence is destroyed very quickly, even minutes or hours after an event. So to expect physical evidence of the walking on water or resurrection is ludicrous, absurd and merely pretetious, just to make one appear reasonable when they are infact unreasonable.
Are you really comparing Jesus, walking on water to George Washington crossing the Delaware?
I googled George Washington and the Delaware and came up with lots of information. I googled walking on water and came up with bible stories and no its not historical fact.
Hello,
Thank you to the OP for posting this question. I am so interested in this topic! You are correct in saying that the whole world over, there are all these different holy books, each of which the people believe to be God's word.
For the ardent Christian folks in the room (I myself am more spiritual than religious), may I ask you a question? See if you feel this fits in with the God you know.
I have heard expressed a belief in "The Ascended Masters and Teachers." In essence, this belief states that throughout time, and all over the world, God has sent messengers to speak to man.
Christ arrived in the Middle East 2000 years ago, and spoke to the people of that place, at that time.
Other religions state that Krishna arrived, that Mohammed came, that the Yellow Emperor came, that Buddha (Siddharta) came, that Imhotep came, etc. You travel to another area on the earth, you hear of another such occurrence, and another such man (or woman).
I was raised a Christian, and I still feel very strongly about the Christian teachings. But I find the beauty, strength, and truth--and most importantly, I find God--as I research and learn more about what other cultures believe.
Finally my question: Do you believe it's possible that God might have sent various messengers/prophets to speak with certain people at certain times, the whole world over? In other words, Jesus Christ did not appear in Asia, did not live with the people in the far East; he did not speak with and appear to people in North America, or in Europe.
But people have appeared to, lived with, and taught, individuals in North America, Far East Asia, Africa, etc.
God in his infinite wisdom could see the various types of cultures, ideas, that had taken root in this world.
Is it not possible that he sent individuals who could speak to that particular culture's "style"? After all, Jesus was a Jew, and he spoke like a Jew, was indeed called "Rabbi" by his followers, he dressed in Jewish dress and spoke in the native tongue of the area.
Buddha spoke the native tongue of his people, wore clothing familiar to them, discussed topics already near to their hearts.
Lao Tse was unique to China, he spoke in their language, he discussed issues that pertained to their way of viewing the world.
Each of these figures was quite tailored to the styles, culture, habitat, religious mindset, of the area in which they appeared and lived.
Is it possible that God wanted to see to it that each part of the earth was touched by Him, that He sent messengers to each area on earth to ensure his message was felt by all?
Previous to the advent of the modern media, would it have been easy for individuals in Japan to know God's word? Or in central Australia? Or in Tribal Africa? Perhaps God did not want the world to have to wait to find Jesus . . .perhaps he saw to it that people had "their own Jesus" in each area on earth, so that a message of love and brotherly communion could be heard before the advent of the modern media would spread the word of Jesus in particular.
Please know I mean no offense to any ardent Christian. This to me does not contradict Jesus's importance. Instead it uplifts it. It shows that God, in his infinite powers, wisdom, and presence, can do whatsoever is needed to ensure that ALL his children feel his presence and hear his message.
I said, since the bible has been tested and proved accurate on the things that can be tested, then we trust those writters of history on the things that cannot be tested!
RESPONSE:
Not so. There are quite a number of contradictions in which one report must be untrue.
For example, was Jesus born during the reign of King Herod the Great (died in 4 BC) as Matthew reports, or during the census conducted by Quirinius when Judea came under his control in 6 AD as reported by Luke?
Did Jesus send for and ride one animal when entering Jerusalem (Mark, Luke, John) or did he send for and ride two two animals so he could fulfill a prophecy according to Matthew?
Isn't it possible as well that we could have many dates wrong, Biblically speaking? First of all, "B.C." is only relevant/practiced once "A.D." is instated, so it can be presumed that many dates would be confused due to that switch-over. Also, historical accuracy is supposedly difficult to ensure, the further back in history one goes, and "reliable" historical accuracy supposedly only begins in 700 B.C., but we know of countless incidents from well after that date that are of questionable integrity. Perhaps we'll never know the precise dates of different accounts . . .but the relative time frame might be ascertained.
Those who lived and wrote during Jesus' time were many, and yet few wrote about Him. Pliny the Elder is often referenced as one of the scholars who did discuss Jesus and His teachings, and yet that has since been "debunked" and proved untrue. There were in the end analysis only two or three scholars who wrote of His existence. Yet mention Him they did. If all we have to illuminate the specifics of His life are the various chapters in the Bible, that is still something -- and we must keep in mind that the Bible was written by mortal men like ourselves.
Perhaps the "real Jesus" lives only in our hearts, and we can find Him when we wish to. Or we can find other important figures. I personally have seldom "felt" Jesus in my life, but for some reason I frequently "feel" Jacob. Who knows why or how this works? Do we know for certain Jacob actually lived and walked this earth? Perhaps not. But the "spirit of Jesus" and the "spirit of Jacob" is not something that can be owned or dated or filed away -- it exists independent of outside forces.
Isn't it possible as well that we could have many dates wrong, Biblically speaking? First of all, "B.C." is only relevant/practiced once "A.D." is instated, so it can be presumed that many dates would be confused due to that switch-over. Also, historical accuracy is supposedly difficult to ensure, the further back in history one goes, and "reliable" historical accuracy supposedly only begins in 700 B.C., but we know of countless incidents from well after that date that are of questionable integrity. Perhaps we'll never know the precise dates of different accounts . . .but the relative time frame might be ascertained.
Those who lived and wrote during Jesus' time were many, and yet few wrote about Him. Pliny the Elder is often referenced as one of the scholars who did discuss Jesus and His teachings, and yet that has since been "debunked" and proved untrue. There were in the end analysis only two or three scholars who wrote of His existence. Yet mention Him they did. If all we have to illuminate the specifics of His life are the various chapters in the Bible, that is still something -- and we must keep in mind that the Bible was written by mortal men like ourselves.
Perhaps the "real Jesus" lives only in our hearts, and we can find Him when we wish to. Or we can find other important figures. I personally have seldom "felt" Jesus in my life, but for some reason I frequently "feel" Jacob. Who knows why or how this works? Do we know for certain Jacob actually lived and walked this earth? Perhaps not. But the "spirit of Jesus" and the "spirit of Jacob" is not something that can be owned or dated or filed away -- it exists independent of outside forces.
RESPONSE:
No. BC and AD were not used in dating the Old and New Testament. The New Testament refers to events that can be dated from the writings of Josephus and other historians including Roman records. For example. Even without the New Testament we know when Herod the Great died and the names and dates of most of the Roman governors of Syria.
>>Pliny the Elder is often referenced as one of the scholars who did discuss Jesus and His teachings, and yet that has since been "debunked" and proved untrue<<
Please cite your evidence for the above assertion.
And are you reducing Jesus to merely a "feeling."?
Last edited by ancient warrior; 09-20-2010 at 10:47 AM..
Reason: typo
You have NOTHING BUT A BOOK OF HERESAY....written decades AFTER THE ALLEGED FACTS....the authors of the gospels are UNKNOWN!!! Names were attributed to them by the church fathers....but we have NO CLUE who actually wrote them. There isn't one ACTUAL EYE WITNESS ACCOUNT.
The disciples are eye witnesses, we know that they are the writters of the gospels, for their are many accounts written to confirm this. For example:
Papias (100-120 AD)“So then Matthew wrote the oracles in the Hebrew language, and every one interpreted them as he was able.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl
Provide us with JUST ONE account from a contemporary historian (a historian who was alive as the same time as Jesus)....JUST ONE....if you can....because we ALL KNOW THERE ISN'T ANY....NADA, ZIP, ZILCH, ZERO!!! Perhaps you should remove your blinders, for just a few seconds, so that you can clearly see that comparative historians wrote about the most MUNDANE FACTS and yet......NOT ONE SENTENCE ABOUT JESUS.....who allegedly had the multitudes following him....THESE ARE THE FACTS!!!!!
Yes, you are right, there is none that are from the exact time of Jesus Christ other then the histories given by the disciples.
Flavius Josephus (c. A.D. 37-100) was born after Christ died and rose from the grave wrote this:
"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. (64) And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross [2], those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day [3], as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named for him, are not extinct at this day." (Jewish Antiquities, Chapter 3:63)
Actually, the Testamonium of Flavus was interpolated:
"The passage in Josephus’ Antiquities of the Jews (Bk. XVIII.III.3, written in 93 C.E.)concerning Jesus is generally considered by scholars either as a Christian interpolation in its entirety or at least as containing an interpolation. It is found in all extant copies of the manuscripts, but all of them are relatively recent, not earlier than eleventh century. The
paragraph is inserted between a story of how Pontius Pilate, Roman procurator between the years 26 and 36 C.E., suppressed a Jewish riot against the construction of an aqueduct with the templetax money and the story of a subterfuge used by a citizen in Rome to seduce a Roman matronthrough the intermediary of the priests of the Isis temple."
There is the Syrian version which seem to be less interpolated or not interpolated at all. I think you can find it on the web.
Last edited by ancient warrior; 09-20-2010 at 12:18 PM..
Reason: elimincate extraneous material
I'm sorry if I gave offense, I didn't mean to reduce Jesus to a feeling. I am instead speaking of "knowing" Jesus (and God) as opposed to merely reading about Him. I'm speaking in reverent terms, believe me, but perhaps that did not come across.
When I say "knowing" God, I am contrasting that with "believing" in Him. I once heard something that really stayed with me, illustrating the differences. A priest brought this up. He said, "If you hold up the pencil and you drop it . . .do you BELIEVE it is going to fall? Or do you KNOW it is going to fall? . . . We don't 'believe' in gravity -- we know there is such a force as gravity. Yet when we speak of God we say we 'believe' in God, instead of saying we 'know' God." He went on to say that that is understandable and forgivable, and it might take a tragedy for us to feel we have come to "know" God, but hopefully each believer can move from "belief" and into "knowing." It is in this beautiful spirit that I speak of the "feeling" of Jesus and/or Jacob.
As far as Pliny the Elder, I was told by my professor in the class "Bible as Literature" (which attempts to discuss the Bible as a piece of literature in addition to an account of religious beliefs) that scholars have disproved the writings of Pliny -- I am forgetting the details, but perhaps it was that it had been decided that writings ascribed to him were in fact written by someone else? On the level of some claiming that there was no one named "Shakespeare" who wrote all those great works but instead a group of men who shared authorship and who then invented the name "Shakespeare" to make it appear as though one, brilliant man authored the whole thing. I thought that was what that professor had said . . .that some of the works ascribed to Pliny have since been proven to be inauthentic. Sorry for the lack of a clear memory!
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Regarding the major religions' holy books
