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I'm in agreement with you...but....you and I both live in the REAL world where, unfortunately, religious folks do tend to set themselves up as holier/better than everyone else. Religion and religious beliefs are exclusivist in nature....even that is evidenced by the arguments seen day in and day out on CD over the different doctrines and dogmas that are adhered to. You're either in or your out according to somebody...and there are as many different opinions as to who qualifies as being "in" as there is as to who qualifies as being "out". I don't see alot of difference in that....it is just another form of racism....know what I mean?
I certainly understand what you are saying, but what I am saying is that "religion" in and of itself is not the cause, it is the people individually that I tend to see a larger problem.
I have encountered enough racists, stuck up and unfriendly people that have no religious ties whatsoever to have come to that conclusion.
I have been to churches and attended long enough to know that the building or the institution was never the problem with anyones belief in particular.
Phazelwood, you're one of the folks around here I do admire and I understand what you are saying. When I pointed to religion, I was actually looking at a much bigger picture but did not want to go too far off the mark than I already did.
In another thread someplace around here, I pointed out that the Bible (at least the Old Testament) has a perfect example of the "we against them" mentiality which often opens the door to racism, ethnocentirsm and misguided nationalism which NEEDS ridiculous comparisons to keep itself propped up. By the time we get to the book of Zechariah, we are told that Israel is the apple of god's eyes. I mean, how corny?
Another case in point is the story of Canaan. We are told that it was [supposedly] the will of god that all the Canaanites be wiped out because they were evil and had run out of time and patience in the eyes of god. If the conquest of Canaan did occur as "the word of god" says it did, then it was a bloody campaign of savagery and butchering second to none. How is this justified? Go back to the book of Genesis and we read that because Canaan (the father of the Canaanites) committed some unspecified sin against his grandfather, he was cursed to eventually become a slave to the descendants of his uncles - namely the Israelites. So the stage was set from early that good things were not going to come to the Canaanites and the Israelites would be their worse nightmare.
I said all of that to point out that for some people, religion mixed with greed and thirst for dominance (think: fanatical Muslims) is a dangerous mix and can lead to some serious hatred for others, sometimes for the silliest imagined reasons.
Phazelwood, you're one of the folks around here I do admire and I understand what you are saying. When I pointed to religion, I was actually looking at a much bigger picture but did not want to go too far off the mark than I already did.
In another thread someplace around here, I pointed out that the Bible (at least the Old Testament) has a perfect example of the "we against them" mentiality which often opens the door to racism, ethnocentirsm and misguided nationalism which NEEDS ridiculous comparisons to keep itself propped up. By the time we get to the book of Zechariah, we are told that Israel is the apple of god's eyes. I mean, how corny?
Another case in point is the story of Canaan. We are told that it was [supposedly] the will of god that all the Canaanites be wiped out because they were evil and had run out of time and patience in the eyes of god. If the conquest of Canaan did occur as "the word of god" says it did, then it was a bloody campaign of savagery and butchering second to none. How is this justified? Go back to the book of Genesis and we read that because Canaan (the father of the Canaanites) committed some unspecified sin against his grandfather, he was cursed to eventually become a slave to the descendants of his uncles - namely the Israelites. So the stage was set from early that good things were not going to come to the Canaanites and the Israelites would be their worse nightmare.
I said all of that to point out that for some people, religion mixed with greed and thirst for dominance (think: fanatical Muslims) is a dangerous mix and can lead to some serious hatred for others, sometimes for the silliest imagined reasons.
I'm not disagreeing completely, but I'd rather place the specifics of what someone says on them. For instance, I believe the bible is the word of God, but I have no reason to use it as a sword to warn or threaten someone that doesn't believe the same thing.
But as I engage in thought with someone who disagrees with me they can make the assertion that I am not actually speaking with them but am speaking with God himself so that if I disagree, I am disagreeing with God and not them,
I personally don't care what religion they are in, that is the result of people with poor character in the first place. I could say that their religion has caused this problem, I just know that it is the individual who is accountable for what they do.
I have seen non religious people use the same "type" of argument. "Well, if you believe that, your stupid" They are both poor ways to conduct ourselves with anyone.
As far as terrorists are concerned. I think the problem is actually unprovable to a certain degree, but I suspect that if religion was not a factor in our world, there would simply be something else used as an excuse.
The rwanda incident was over sects of people and the shape of their nose. When someone might kill another for a pair of shoes, I can observe all I need to know that the human condition ultimatly has little to do with religion, even if we can find people who act according to some religious belief.
Thank you! If this was Blackplanet.com, this would just be a story and it would be understood we were MOST likely talking about someone black and there would be no mention to skin color. This is City-Data where I can guarantee you that 99% of the folks on this forum had/have no idea who Eddie Long was until this story. In fact, I am sure 99% still could care less because they probably cannot relate past a certain point.
First of all, I am black and I never heard of Eddie Long until you started a thread about him. Also, I have met a few "white gurls" on Blackplanet! Even rapper Paul Wall wrote a song about meeting girls on Blackplanet. Bruh bruh, step outside of your box. The flava of this 2010 Kool Aid ain't exactly what you may think it is.
Anyway, I understand where you are coming from with some black churches. However, this is not unique to the black churches at all. Honestly, there is NOTHING unique about black churches. I have seen people of all races doing stupid sh#$ while "in the spirit".
This is now called the "Name It And Claim It Gospel" or the "Prosperity Gospel"....and is taught by so many of the televangelists...Joyce Meyer, Joel Olsteen, Jesse Duplantis, Benny Hinn, etc....they also teach the "Reap What You Sow Gospel"...which helps them collect more money from the blinded flock. It's like P.T. Barnum said..."There is a sucker born every minute." I am absolutely amazed at the amount of people who fall for this tripe...but fall for it they do....while making these "preachers" rich off of their blind stupidity. It seems the only ones who are actually Naming It and Claiming It are the "preachers" who fleece the flock and claim all the money they give them.
And people wonder why i don't go to church anymore...I got tired of hearing sermon after sermon where the Preacher would preach on any part of the bible and some how spin the meaning to 'give 'til it hurts'...I would love to go to a stable church where i could learn and worship...but it is hard to find one...
Can't be anti-black either because I don't hate myself or my race.
Now, here is a black man that does not claim victimization and the whites owe him attitutde...a man that stands on his own two feet...and i guess he missed what you said about your church and the VI and that you were talking about the black culture being duped by hagin...It was a logical assumption that you were black from what you said...at least to me it was...
It caught hold because people where struggling socially and financially. I also think the previous Christian traditions (at least in the States) amongst blacks kind of set this up to happen. The "we shall overcome" theme, so popular from Reconstruction through the Civil Rights movement, was one of struggle and suffering. Some would even argue that Christianity itself was a source of some of that suffering. When I was a kid going to church I would actually pay attention to the words of those old negro spirituals my grandparents would sing. They were depressing! Many of those songs were about wanting to die and go be with God because this world was so bad. The message from many of those songs was that a black person's only goal in life was to prepare for the afterlife because there was nothing for them in this life. To be fair, songs like that reflected a very true reality for African Americans at the time they were written.
At the dawn of the 1970's attitudes started changing. A lot of people did not want to hear the "suffering" message anymore. People were tired of suffering. People wanted to actually enjoy THIS life. Unfortunately, that very natural desire was often exploited by people promising to deliver it. It is no coincidence that Reverend Ike hit his stride in the '70's. He is the first black pastor to really take off with the Word of Faith message. There would be no Creflo Dollar, TD Jakes, or Eddie Long without Reverend Ike.
Having seen these things play out in my own family has affected my views of faith and religion. I still struggle heavily with religion. Many Atheists think religion will just die out. I don't believe that. As long as there are poor and powerless people in the world there will be religion. When people are not allowed to determine their own destiny they will turn to believing in something (or someone) greater than themselves.
None of this is meant to absolve modern black Christians of the their responsibility to be discerning about the pastors they follow. I just wanted to give a bit of perspective. Still, it should be pointed out there are many African American Christians who outright detest the "prosperity gospel" and all of its various forms. Jakes, Dollar, Long and Price all have MANY detractors in the black community at large.
I guess that they avoid the part in scripture where it states that If you pray for something according to God's will, it will be done...But maybe they think it is God's will that they have a plasma screen or rolls royce...
LOL, I see it also in the white community, but I take it he totally missed that. I have seen more white preachers and other races that are doing just what he claims the black community is doing. There are so many white preachers that have scammed the church, but people as you see only point the finger at who they want to point the finger at. Sin has no color and black, white, and any other race has did things in the church that are foolish......
What about the Catholic preachers in the church sleeping with boys, I mean can you say, hey look at the white community or Catholic community and what they are doing when it comes down to these foolish men sleeping with boys in the church?........ NO, but people will be people and as you say, Anti. LOL, now that was good.............................
weird...has a catholic preacher ever been caught sleeping with little girls?...
You want me to talk about them too because I sure can and it would take about 8.5 million words to write. I am black and I took this thread to address something I was once caught up in, was near and dear to me and at one point, affected my outlook on life, VERY sadly I might add.
I dabbled in the name it claim it theology...tested it so to speak...and when i did not get what i prayed for i got confused until i came accross scripture that said that if it was in God's will that it will be done...when scripture says that what ever one asks God for will be done it is assumed that the letter is speaking to a christian and that a true believer is not going to pray for something that is self indulgent...example from me...recently my mini van was giving me problems with over heating and it was on its last legs and so i prayed to God to point me to a car so i could continue taking care of my family and obligations...i needed to get back and forth to work...so, an opportunity came about for a 199b car...it is not brand new and it is not the best...but it runs and it gets me back and forth to work so i may continue taking care of my obligations...If i would have prayed for a specific type of car...i would not have gotten it...back almost 20 years ago there was a period where i was unemployed and had very little in the bank and my conviction was that i tithe it...but, i also needed to pay my car insurance and needed gas to look for a job and once secured to get back and forth...i also owed the IRS because i did my ez form six times and still came out with oweing the IRS...so i sent in my form with a little note explaining my situation and that once i was employed i would honor my debt to them and appologized for any inconvenience...so, i went to church that sunday and tithed my money...three weeks later i recieved a check from the IRS with a return of $680...enough to pay my insurance and put gas in my car...two days later an employer called me and i was employed...it was minimum wage, but it took care of the basics...these are told to point out that i believe it is God's will that we stand and work and not be lazy and take care of our obligations and if you ask for help in that that God will answer it and open doors for you...i do not belive it is His will for you to drive a brand new corvette or live in a half a million dollar house and be rich...I knew a preacher once that owned two ciropractic clinics and had a nice house with a pool in the country and was very well off because of his profession...but he also put a lot of money into his church from his own pocket and realized that he could not fully step out of his profession and devote full time to ministry as he wanted, he saw that his business was largely supporting the church and that most of his congregation were everyday working people that gave what they could when they could and he was fine with that...But, alas he installed his wife as a co-pastor and she brought the name it claim it in, slowly, and i haven't heard what ever became of the church since then...many of his congregation started seeing something contrary to scripture and left the church...
Can't he talk about one side of it without being anti something? Not everything has to revolve around white people, let him talk about something from his perspective.
I agree with you there...
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Even rapper Paul Wall wrote a song about meeting girls on Blackplanet. Bruh bruh, step outside of your box. The flava of this 2010 Kool Aid ain't exactly what you may think it is.
I see it also in the white community, but I take it he totally missed that. I have seen more white preachers and other races that are doing just what he claims the black community is doing. There are so many white preachers that have scammed the church, but people as you see only point the finger at who they want to point the finger at. Sin has no color and black, white, and any other race has did things in the church that are foolish......
