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Thank you, this thing with the black church, white church is so ignorant. Jesus said that He will come back for His church, not His black church, His white church, the Methodist church, The Baptist Church, but His church that are called by His name.
But people act like they are slow to understand the very words of His church. So, sad.
Phazelwood, you're one of the folks around here I do admire and I understand what you are saying. When I pointed to religion, I was actually looking at a much bigger picture but did not want to go too far off the mark than I already did.
In another thread someplace around here, I pointed out that the Bible (at least the Old Testament) has a perfect example of the "we against them" mentiality which often opens the door to racism, ethnocentirsm and misguided nationalism which NEEDS ridiculous comparisons to keep itself propped up. By the time we get to the book of Zechariah, we are told that Israel is the apple of god's eyes. I mean, how corny?
Another case in point is the story of Canaan. We are told that it was [supposedly] the will of god that all the Canaanites be wiped out because they were evil and had run out of time and patience in the eyes of god. If the conquest of Canaan did occur as "the word of god" says it did, then it was a bloody campaign of savagery and butchering second to none. How is this justified? Go back to the book of Genesis and we read that because Canaan (the father of the Canaanites) committed some unspecified sin against his grandfather, he was cursed to eventually become a slave to the descendants of his uncles - namely the Israelites. So the stage was set from early that good things were not going to come to the Canaanites and the Israelites would be their worse nightmare.
I said all of that to point out that for some people, religion mixed with greed and thirst for dominance (think: fanatical Muslims) is a dangerous mix and can lead to some serious hatred for others, sometimes for the silliest imagined reasons.
He did not sin against his grandfather...it was his father, Ham, that did...and it was specified...Noah got drunk and shed his clothes and layed in his tent naked and Ham came upon him and thought it funny and went and got his brothers to and showed them their fathers nakedness and they refused to look and put a cloak on their backs and walked backwards and covered their father's nakedness, when Noah awoke and learned what Ham did...he was angry and cursed him and his descendants that they will serve the descendants of the other two...So, it was not what Canaan did but what his father did and the sins of the father were visited on the son...
The word “church” in the New Testament comes from the Greek word, ekklesia, which means “to call out.” He is the one who is “calling out” people who will call upon Him for salvation. It has nothing to do with color. Jesus is the head of the church and we who follow Him are His followers who make up His church, being black, white, Jewish, what ever color. When Jesus comes back He will be looking for His church ( the people that follow Him). I hope this is clear.
He did not sin against his grandfather...it was his father, Ham, that did...and it was specified...Noah got drunk and shed his clothes and layed in his tent naked and Ham came upon him and thought it funny and went and got his brothers to and showed them their fathers nakedness and they refused to look and put a cloak on their backs and walked backwards and covered their father's nakedness, when Noah awoke and learned what Ham did...he was angry and cursed him and his descendants that they will serve the descendants of the other two...So, it was not what Canaan did but what his father did and the sins of the father were visited on the son...
I stand corrected, but this sounds REALLY fair. Father commits some unspecified sin so punish the son and his descendants.
This name it and claim it theology started with Kenneth Hagin ...This theology has basically crept into traditional black Pentecostal circles and became part of their theology. You have had forerunners here and there with the give to get theology.
It is appealing to people who are poor and want a quick fix...It is actually a religious con to take people's hard-earned money.
A lot of black people back in the day followed Oral Roberts with his "Seed Faith" theology. Same idea, give to get. a form of
religious gambling.
In light of the “Bishop” Eddie Long saga unfolding in Atlanta, it occurred to me that he and others like him in the black church community are products of something that ran rampant some 30 years ago in parts of the American Christian church. I remember when I was in my small church 30 years ago back in the Virgin Islands, a young guest minister came to our church and introduced a new kind of theology. It later became known as the “Claim it – Believe it” doctrine. Church folks were being taught that there was “power in the tongue” (as per a passage in the Book of Proverbs) and that speaking positive things brought the positive thing into reality and conversely, the same with negative things. From this platform, people believed that if they spoke health, money, good fortune “in faith,” whatever they desired, god would get it for them. The thinking at the time was, “if those dirty, scumbag sinners out there could be well off, how much more should god’s children be ahead of them?” This was of course based on the New Testament passage that states that “if earthly fathers know how to give good gifts to their children, how much MORE would your heavenly father [give]?”
The teaching spread like wildfire and soon we were exposed to the world/teachings of Kenneth Hagin, the man credited with starting the whole concept. His biggest Disciple was Kenneth Copeland. They churned out books about speaking things into existence by faith, using such terms as “binding the devil” and being “slain in the spirit.” Folks became obsessed with using the “power of the tongue” to receive such miracles as perfect health and money because after all, why would god NOT want his people to have the best?
Of course this new teaching resounded with black folks considering that they have been historically on the poor side of things. The idea of god and the church has been a part of the black community since the days of slavery, but in the past, god was just there to help them get through the rough times, now they saw an opportunity for god to get them into the good times. So it is no surprise to super-rich black ministers like Creflo Dollar caught wind of Kenneth Copeland’s teachings and marketed the idea to his congregation which launched him into the stratosphere he now resides in. Considering Atlanta has many prosperous blacks and is a city with many black millionaire athletes who dabble with church, there was indeed an affluent base to tap into and men like Dollar and Long managed to successfully do this. Now these guys are practically untouchable despite their arrogant extravagance.
Wasn't just black folks. Some of us white folks rode that name it and claim it gospel for far too many years. When you're talking about black ministers, don't forget Frederick K.C. Price. Ugh.
Which came first the prosperity doctrine or the Law of attraction? There is no real difference between the two except what you call the thing that is going to give you what you are believing for.
This name it and claim it theology started with Kenneth Hagin ...This theology has basically crept into traditional black Pentecostal circles and became part of their theology. You have had forerunners here and there with the give to get theology.
It is appealing to people who are poor and want a quick fix...It is actually a religious con to take people's hard-earned money.
A lot of black people back in the day followed Oral Roberts with his "Seed Faith" theology. Same idea, give to get. a form of
religious gambling.
You didn’t read all the posts in this thread, did you?...It actually all sprang from this:
“E. W. Kenyon, a Baptist minister and adherent of the Higher Life movement, is credited with introducing mind-power teachings into early Pentecostalism.” - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology
This was in the late 19th century...
More to it and further back:
“ According to historian Kate Bowler, the prosperity gospel was formed from the intersection of three different ideologies: Pentecostalism, New Thought, and "an American gospel of pragmatism, individualism, and upward mobility".” - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology
You didn’t read all the posts in this thread, did you?...It actually all sprang from this:
“E. W. Kenyon, a Baptist minister and adherent of the Higher Life movement, is credited with introducing mind-power teachings into early Pentecostalism.” - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology
This was in the late 19th century...
More to it and further back:
“ According to historian Kate Bowler, the prosperity gospel was formed from the intersection of three different ideologies: Pentecostalism, New Thought, and "an American gospel of pragmatism, individualism, and upward mobility".” - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology
Correct. I believe Hagin drew a lot of inspiration from Kenyon. The modern iteration of it is Word of Faith. And it exists in both black and the white churches in America.
I think the primary example of faith accomplishing something for a person regardless them introducing themselves to the one giving the healing, Jesus, is that of the woman who had the issue of blood for twelve years. She's the one who said that if she could only touch the hem of his garment, then she would be healed. What she did was trust in His nature. She took him at the meaning of His word. She didn't make it up. She didn't add anything new. When she believed, it wasn't a stretch. She wasn't asking for wealth. She wasn't ignoring Him trying to tell her more important things about reality, which were communicated in His words. She wasn't trying to become the CEO of the corporation she worked for. She just wanted what she needed. Name it and claim it is not like that. It wants, importantly, to ignore the will of God. And it wants to ignore it in a very dangerous way. It wants to assume that it knows, when God doesn't. It says that what a person wants is more important than what God wants. We tend to want immediate gratification.
Ok, so why don't we get a lot more evidence, as it were, from God regarding His heart? We know that He wants a lot for us. Why don't Christians rise to the top? Why isn't there a big difference between them and the rest of humanity? God could bank a lot of coin based upon a difference like that in the world. Well, you know, the Muslims say the same thing. They desperately want to rise to the top because they assume that God is on their side. They feel slighted because they aren't favored. How dare those sinners gain all of the respect and wealth.
"Speak to the rock," is what God told Moses. Moses decided, instead, to strike the rock with his staff. For not speaking to the rock, Moses was sentenced to not entering the Promised Land. He was pretty close to God, but was not going to get God to relent on that. Why did God find striking the rock the wrong thing when He had told Moses to do that the time before, when the Israelites needed water? Well, speaking to the rock was the answer for the next so many years. It was the answer for the rest of the time they had in exile in the wilderness. That answer was not going to be immediate.
Speaking is different than acting. It involves listening. If you are the people, then the difference is the difference between expecting a handout and results based upon learning. The Holy Spirit is our teacher. Obviously, He wants us to listen. Moses's experience was that of not entering the Promised Land. As close as he was to God, arguing for another judgement wasn't going to work for him. God was insisting upon throwing out a lesson on the value of listening.
That being said, there is more to the modern story. Since the 70's Americans have been falling behind. Income has dropped, compared to historical numbers. Income, and wealth, inequality has increased. That has had a knock on effect across many income and class distributions. The lack of success for entire groups has meant there has been a set of winners and losers. Most of us have been losers. I wonder if, for losing, we have learned anything, or if we just want, want, want? Because a person can borrow themselves out of almost any problem related to this. They can borrow, and borrow. God wants us to have wisdom. That may mean borrowing, but as and when it is appropriate. Otherwise, you must have some sort of faith in something that you haven't got the best idea of in its relation to other answers. You know, trusting in those things for which money has very little application, like the work of God at work changing who you are.
I really liked what Insane had to say about this. They are a fair person. They seemed to evaluate the current situation evenly, with praise for those things which those they brought this up over have done right and criticism for the ones they've gotten wrong. I know a person can't ever be fair enough for some people, once they find out some personal things about somebody, but they were fair enough for me.
Last edited by Am I a Prophet; 08-26-2020 at 02:49 PM..
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