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I have provided in post #7 four different sources from experts in the Greek lanquage that aionios is used to specify eternal things.
Aionios is used both in reference to an age, and in reference to eternal things. It depends on the context.
AGAIN. And to keep this thread on topic; which is that Jesus Christ will reign forever, Luke 1:33 makes that quite clear by coming at it from two different angles.
Luke 1:33 'And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever (aionas); and His Kingdom will have no end. This passage approaches the fact that Jesus will reign forever from two different perspectives. First, it states that Jesus will reign forever, and then it strengthens that statement by declaring that there will be no end to His reign. It can't be made any more plain than that.
NO END means forever.
Answer this question straight out. Are you denying that Jesus Christ will reign forever? Yes or no!!!
I'll ask it like this. Are you denying that once Jesus Christ begins His reign that it will continue without end? Yes or no!!!
Mike, there not experts if there wrong. Also, the verse you quoted doesn't use aionios at all.
To say that Jesus will reign "for ever and ever" is to deny the plain declarations of scripture. He only reigns UNTIL all enemies are subjected under His feet.
Luke 1:33
"And he shall REIGN over the house of Jacob for ever [GK: AION, meaning 'into the AGE']; and OF His kingdom [the RESULT of His reign; His completed Kingdom] there shall be NO END."
The reign ends, but the kingdom does NOT.
1 Cor 15:24-25
"Then cometh the END, when he shall have DELIVERED UP the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have PUT DOWN A-L-L rule and A-L-L authority AND A-L-L power. 25 For he must reign, U-N-T-I-L he hath put all enemies under his feet."
To REIGN means to RULE, to have AUTHORITY, and to have POWER over someone. Paul clearly tells us that all of those things will be "PUT DOWN"...Why? Paul answers: "for He must reign U-N-T-I-L...".
Once all enemies are subdued unto Jesus (this is a positive thing), He no longer has to reign over anything or anyone. How? Because all enemies will have "MADE righteous [Rom 5:18-19]" and "MADE alive"[1 Cor 15:22] at "the END". The LAST enemy, DEATH [which includes the second death], will be ABOLISHED.
Notice that it doesn't say that His enemies will be "abolished". Only the LAST enemy is done away with (abolished)! ......so that God may be ALL IN A-L-L [enemies included] - 1 Cor 15:28.
To say that Jesus will reign "for ever and ever" is to deny the plain declarations of scripture. He only reigns UNTIL all enemies are subjected under His feet.
Luke 1:33
"And he shall REIGN over the house of Jacob for ever [GK: AION, meaning 'into the AGE']; and OF His kingdom [the RESULT of His reign; His completed Kingdom] there shall be NO END."
The reign ends, but the kingdom does NOT.
1 Cor 15:24-25
"Then cometh the END, when he shall have DELIVERED UP the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have PUT DOWN A-L-L rule and A-L-L authority AND A-L-L power. 25 For he must reign, U-N-T-I-L he hath put all enemies under his feet."
To REIGN means to RULE, to have AUTHORITY, and to have POWER over someone. Paul clearly tells us that all of those things will be "PUT DOWN"...Why? Paul answers: "for He must reign U-N-T-I-L...".
Once all enemies are subdued unto Jesus (this is a positive thing), He no longer has to reign over anything or anyone. How? Because all enemies will have "MADE righteous [Rom 5:18-19]" and "MADE alive"[1 Cor 15:22] at "the END". The LAST enemy, DEATH [which includes the second death], will be ABOLISHED.
Notice that it doesn't say that His enemies will be "abolished". Only the LAST enemy is done away with (abolished)! ......so that God may be ALL IN A-L-L [enemies included] - 1 Cor 15:28.
Back to post #1.
Because of 1 Corinthians 15:24, there are those who believe that Jesus Christ will not reign forever.
1 Corinthians 15:24 'Then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25] For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
But here are what the following passages say:
Luke 1:33 'And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever (aionas); and His Kingdom will have no end. This passage approaches the fact that Jesus will reign forever from two different perspectives. First, it states that Jesus will reign forever, and then it strengthens that statement by declaring that there will be no end to His reign. It can't be made any more plain than that.
Hebrews 1:8 ''But of the Son He says, ''Thy throne O God, is forever and ever - eis ton aiona tou aionos - to the ages of the ages. The most emphatic way in the Greek of expressing the concept of eternity.
Yes, Jesus will deliver up the kingdom to the Father at the end of the Millennium when all enemies have been put under His feet, which includes the fallen angels and unbelieving humanity being cast into the lake of fire forever. The last enemy to be defeated will be physical death. All believers and all unbelievers will have been resurrected, and there will be no more physical death. Unbelievers of course will be thrown into the lake of fire which is the Second death where they will live forever in eternal shame, ruin, uselessness and torment. Then Jesus will indeed deliver up the kingdom to the Father, and it will be the triune God; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who will rule forever.
The eternal throne is that of God and of the Lamb. Revelation 22:1 'And He showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God (the Father) and of the Lamb (Jesus Christ).
Revelation 22:3 'And there shall no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His bond-servents shall serve Him:
So Jesus will turn over the Millennial kingdom to God, and time will give way to eternity future, and the triune God will rule over all.
The passages above are also the plain revelation of scripture. The Millennial reign will come to an end but the eternal reign of Jesus along with the Father never ends.
Dr. C. I. Scofield put it like this...
And (7) the kingdom of heaven (Mt.3:2, note), thus established under David's divine Son, has for its object the restoration of the divine authority in the earth, which may be regarded as a revolted province of the great kingdom of God, (Mt.6:33,note). The Kingdom Age of 1000 years constitutes the seventh dispensation (Rev.20:4,note). When Christ defeats the last enemy, death (vv. 24-26), then He will deliver up the kingdom to ''God, even the Father,'' that ''God [i.e. the triune God---Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] may be all in all'' (v.28). The eternal throne is that ''of God and of the Lamb'' (Rev.22.1).
[New Scofield Reference Edition, footnote for 1 Cor. 15:24, pp. 1248,1249.]
In addition, as a reward to believers who advanced to spiritual maturity, they will also reign forever along with Christ.
Rev 22:5 'And there shall no longer be any night; and they shall not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God shall illumine them; and they shall reign forever and ever.
Furthermore, all men will not be made righteous. Romans 5 does not say that. Only those who believe in Christ are made righteous. But that is not the topic of this thread, so please don't pursue it on this thread.
This passage approaches the fact that Jesus will reign forever from two different perspectives. First, it states that Jesus will reign forever, and then it strengthens that statement by declaring that there will be no end to His reign. It can't be made any more plain than that.
Wrong.
It does not say that He reigns "forever". You made that up. You need to do at least a couple hours of proper research on the Greek noun "aion" and it adjective form "aionios" before making such comments.
1 Cor 15:24-25 shatters your entire argument. He does not "reign forever from two different perspectives". This is utter nonsense. You can't just make something up and call it truth.
Quote:
Hebrews 1:8 ''But of the Son He says, ''Thy throne O God, is forever and ever - eis ton aiona tou aionos - to the ages of the ages. The most emphatic way in the Greek of expressing the concept of eternity.
The most "emphatic way of expressing the concept of eternity", you say? Where did you get that bit of nonsense from?
What, pray tell, does "the eon [singular] of the eons [plural]" [Eph 3:21], mean then? ALMOST eternity? Give me a break.
Eph 3:21 [Literal]
"Unto him be glory in the CHURCH by Christ Jesus throughout all GENERATIONS of the EON [THIS CHURCH AGE] of the EONS [all eons]. Amen"
When you have one thing taken OUT of another thing, it DEMANDS limitation.
"The Lord OF lords" is one Lord, Who is distinct FROM all other lords. "The King OF kings" is one King, distinctive of ALL OTHER kings.
Likewise, "the eon OF eons" (Eph 3:21) is ONE eon DISTINCTIVE of all other eons.
Finally, "the eons OF the eons" are two or more DISTINCTIVE eons OUT OF all other eons. This is not rocket science!
If you cannot even grasp something as elementary as this, then you really don't have an opinion, my friend.
Quote:
Yes, Jesus will deliver up the kingdom to the Father at the end of the Millennium when all enemies have been put under His feet, which includes the fallen angels and unbelieving humanity being cast into the lake of fire forever. The last enemy to be defeated will be physical death. All believers and all unbelievers will have been resurrected, and there will be no more physical death.
Oh really? You say this is talking about "physical death", only? Can you prove that to me? Plus, it does not say "the last enemy TO BE DEFEATED". It says "The last enemy, death, SHALL be abolished". There is a difference. All "enemies" are not going to be abolished or destroyed. Only DEATH will be abolished. Plus, death = DEATH. ALL death. This includes the first and second DEATH. ALL death shall be abolished, not just this first natural death.
BTW: Being placed "under His feet" does NOT mean "being cast into the lake of fire". Where do you come up with this stuff?
Quote:
Unbelievers of course will be thrown into the lake of fire which is the Second death where they will live forever in eternal shame, ruin, uselessness and torment.
Wrong yet again. Unbelievers will NOT live forever in "eternal shame, ruin, uselessness and torment". This is a doctrine of demons.
Quote:
Then Jesus will indeed deliver up the kingdom to the Father, and it will be the triune God; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who will rule forever.
The "triune God"? And I assume you think this too is scriptural? There is no "triune God". The holy spirit is not some PERSON. It is the POWER and influence of both the Father and His Son.
1 Cor 8:6
"But to us there is but ONE God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and ONE Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."
Sorry, but there is no mention of another THIRD "person" called the "holy spirit".
BTW: 1 John 5:8 is spurious. It was added to the bible in the 15th century by the Roman Catholic Church.
Tell me something...WHO is the Father of Jesus? Is it the FATHER, or is it the "Holy Spirit"?
It's very simple actually: Mary was conceived "BY the Holy Spirit", NOT the Father, and yet, the Father is the FATHER of Jesus Christ!
If the holy spirit is the third "co-equal" PERSON of the godhead, then the holy spirit would have to be the Father of Jesus. This is just simple logic. Even a toddler can understand this. But it seems that most of Christendom cannot.
Quite simply, it is saying that Mary was conceived by the POWER of God, which is His SPIRIT. And that "spirit" is indeed HOLY.
Quote:
The eternal throne is that of God and of the Lamb. Revelation 22:1 'And He showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God (the Father) and of the Lamb (Jesus Christ).
Revelation 22:3 'And there shall no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His bond-servents shall serve Him:
So Jesus will turn over the Millennial kingdom to God, and time will give way to eternity future, and the triune God will rule over all.
More nonsense. You really don't believe the scriptures. Nowhere does it say He will turn over the "millenial kingdom". Again, you make these things up! He delivers "THE kingdom" back to the Father and lays DOWN ALL "rule"!
Read it again:
"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have PUT DOWN ALL RULE..." etc...
If there is no more RULING, then how on earth can He still be RULING? When God is all IN all, there will be no more need to "RULE". We will all be one giant FAMILY.
Quote:
The passages above are also the plain revelation of scripture.
Well, it certainly doesn't appear to be very plain to YOU.
Quote:
The Millennial reign will come to an end but the eternal reign of Jesus along with the Father never ends.
Wow. "For HE [Jesus] must REIGN, UNTIL...". THIS couldn't be any plainer.
I'll answer one more and I'm done with this:
Quote:
Furthermore, all men will not be made righteous. Romans 5 does not say that. Only those who believe in Christ are made righteous. But that is not the topic of this thread, so please don't pursue it on this thread.
All men SHALL be made righteous. Paul was very clear on this point. You just don't want it to be so. Why? Perhaps you think you deserve salvation because of something YOU did that most others did NOT do. Am I right? I thinks so. I believe this to be true as I used to be like you. You now have a right to BOAST, if you think that YOU will be saved and not your neighbor.
Eph 2:8-9
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [that FAITH is] NOT of yourselves: it is the GIFT of God: 9 Not of works [ of ANY KIND], lest any man should BOAST"
Salvation is the work of Jesus Christ, ALONE.
Proof:
Mark 10:26-27
"And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves , Who then can be saved? And Jesus looking upon them saith , With MEN it is IMPOSSIBLE, but not with God: for with God ALL things are possible. [including the salvation of ALL MEN]"
1 John 4:14
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son TO BE the Saviour of the WORLD."
Paul declares:
"EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY TONGUE shall CONFESS that Jesus IS Lord".
When a man confesses Jesus as their Lord, they essentially BECOME a "believer". So, you are right. Only believers will be made righteous.
A person obviously has to BELIEVE before they are "made righteous". But unfortunately, you still believe the lie that a man must make "a free will decision" to "become a believer" during their natural life, or it will be too late. This is completely UNscriptural, not to mention blasphemous!
The world will learn righteousness THROUGH Judgment:
Isaiah 26:9
"For WHEN Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth [at the Great White Throne JUDGMENT], the inhabitants of the WHOLE WORLD will LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS".
God doesn't save people IN their sins. He saves people FROM their sins.
Well, I've made my peace. You can accept this truth, or deny it. It's up to you. I'm out.
Because of 1 Corinthians 15:24, there are those who believe that Jesus Christ will not reign forever.
1 Corinthians 15:24 'Then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25] For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
But here are what the following passages say:
Luke 1:33 'And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever (aionas); and His Kingdom will have no end. This passage approaches the fact that Jesus will reign forever from two different perspectives. First, it states that Jesus will reign forever, and then it strengthens that statement by declaring that there will be no end to His reign. It can't be made any more plain than that.
Hebrews 1:8 ''But of the Son He says, ''Thy throne O God, is forever and ever - eis ton aiona tou aionos - to the ages of the ages. The most emphatic way in the Greek of expressing the concept of eternity.
Yes, Jesus will deliver up the kingdom to the Father at the end of the Millennium when all enemies have been put under His feet, which includes the fallen angels and unbelieving humanity being cast into the lake of fire forever. The last enemy to be defeated will be physical death. All believers and all unbelievers will have been resurrected, and there will be no more physical death. Unbelievers of course will be thrown into the lake of fire which is the Second death where they will live forever in eternal shame, ruin, uselessness and torment. Then Jesus will indeed deliver up the kingdom to the Father, and it will be the triune God; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who will rule forever.
The eternal throne is that of God and of the Lamb. Revelation 22:1 'And He showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God (the Father) and of the Lamb (Jesus Christ).
Revelation 22:3 'And there shall no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His bond-servents shall serve Him:
So Jesus will turn over the Millennial kingdom to God, and time will give way to eternity future, and the triune God will rule over all.
The passages above are also the plain revelation of scripture. The Millennial reign will come to an end but the eternal reign of Jesus along with the Father never ends.
Dr. C. I. Scofield put it like this...
And (7) the kingdom of heaven (Mt.3:2, note), thus established under David's divine Son, has for its object the restoration of the divine authority in the earth, which may be regarded as a revolted province of the great kingdom of God, (Mt.6:33,note). The Kingdom Age of 1000 years constitutes the seventh dispensation (Rev.20:4,note). When Christ defeats the last enemy, death (vv. 24-26), then He will deliver up the kingdom to ''God, even the Father,'' that ''God [i.e. the triune God---Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] may be all in all'' (v.28). The eternal throne is that ''of God and of the Lamb'' (Rev.22.1).
[New Scofield Reference Edition, footnote for 1 Cor. 15:24, pp. 1248,1249.]
In addition, as a reward to believers who advanced to spiritual maturity, they will also reign forever along with Christ.
Rev 22:5 'And there shall no longer be any night; and they shall not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God shall illumine them; and they shall reign forever and ever.
Furthermore, all men will not be made righteous. Romans 5 does not say that. Only those who believe in Christ are made righteous. But that is not the topic of this thread, so please don't pursue it on this thread.
So which is it Mike? - Does Jesus Reign Forever, or does He turn over the Kingdom to the Father?
So which is it Mike? - Does Jesus Reign Forever, or does He turn over the Kingdom to the Father?
Mike will probably say Jesus will turn the kingdom over to Himself.
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