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It does not say that He reigns "forever". You made that up. You need to do at least a couple hours of proper research on the Greek noun "aion" and it adjective form "aionios" before making such comments.
1 Cor 15:24-25 shatters your entire argument. He does not "reign forever from two different perspectives". This is utter nonsense. You can't just make something up and call it truth.
The meaning of aion and the words derived from it such as aionios has been decussed at length on this forum. Both aion and words derived from it have a range of meaning from an indefinite period of time but not endless, to an indefinite period because endless.
The most "emphatic way of expressing the concept of eternity", you say? Where did you get that bit of nonsense from?
What, pray tell, does "the eon [singular] of the eons [plural]" [Eph 3:21], mean then? ALMOST eternity? Give me a break.
Eph 3:21 [Literal]
"Unto him be glory in the CHURCH by Christ Jesus throughout all GENERATIONS of the EON [THIS CHURCH AGE] of the EONS [all eons]. Amen"
When you have one thing taken OUT of another thing, it DEMANDS limitation
"The Lord OF lords" is one Lord, Who is distinct FROM all other lords. "The King OF kings" is one King, distinctive of ALL OTHER kings.
Likewise, "the eon OF eons" (Eph 3:21) is ONE eon DISTINCTIVE of all other eons.
Finally, "the eons OF the eons" are two or more DISTINCTIVE eons OUT OF all other eons. This is not rocket science!
You ask where I learned that 'eis ton aiona tou aionos' is the most emphatic way of expressing the concept of eternity.
I learned about that by researching what such noted authorities on the matter had to say about it, such as Hermann Sasse and R. C. H. Lenski, as well as Alan Gomes who is Associate Professor of the Dept of Theology at Talbot School of Theology.
At the following links you can read Dr. Gomes paper on the subject.
If you cannot even grasp something as elementary as this, then you really don't have an opinion, my friend.
Refer back to the links which have been provided above and read them carefully.
You will find also by refering to the aforementioned post #203 that aionios was used outside of the Bible to express the concept of eternity by men such as Philo, Aristotle, and Plato.
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Oh really? You say this is talking about "physical death", only? Can you prove that to me? Plus, it does not say "the last enemy TO BE DEFEATED". It says "The last enemy, death, SHALL be abolished". There is a difference. All "enemies" are not going to be abolished or destroyed. Only DEATH will be abolished. Plus, death = DEATH. ALL death. This includes the first and second DEATH. ALL death shall be abolished, not just this first natural death.
This is now getting into a discussion of ET versus UR, which has been temporarily banned on this forum and will not be pursued on this thread.
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BTW: Being placed "under His feet" does NOT mean "being cast into the lake of fire". Where do you come up with this stuff?
Wrong yet again. Unbelievers will NOT live forever in "eternal shame, ruin, uselessness and torment". This is a doctrine of demons.
Again, this is getting into a decussion of ET versus UR and will not be decussed on this thread as per the temporary ban on the subject. Feel free to go though my past threads on the matter.
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The "triune God"? And I assume you think this too is scriptural? There is no "triune God". The holy spirit is not some PERSON. It is the POWER and influence of both the Father and His Son.
1 Cor 8:6
"But to us there is but ONE God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and ONE Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."
Sorry, but there is no mention of another THIRD "person" called the "holy spirit".
BTW: 1 John 5:8 is spurious. It was added to the bible in the 15th century by the Roman Catholic Church.
Tell me something...WHO is the Father of Jesus? Is it the FATHER, or is it the "Holy Spirit"?
It's very simple actually: Mary was conceived "BY the Holy Spirit", NOT the Father, and yet, the Father is the FATHER of Jesus Christ!
If the holy spirit is the third "co-equal" PERSON of the godhead, then the holy spirit would have to be the Father of Jesus. This is just simple logic. Even a toddler can understand this. But it seems that most of Christendom cannot.
Quite simply, it is saying that Mary was conceived by the POWER of God, which is His SPIRIT. And that "spirit" is indeed HOLY.
The Trinity has been discussed at length on this forum. Refer back to my prior threads such as ...
More nonsense. You really don't believe the scriptures. Nowhere does it say He will turn over the "millenial kingdom". Again, you make these things up! He delivers "THE kingdom" back to the Father and lays DOWN ALL "rule"!
Read it again:
"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have PUT DOWN ALL RULE..." etc...
If there is no more RULING, then how on earth can He still be RULING? When God is all IN all, there will be no more need to "RULE". We will all be one giant FAMILY.
All rule which is in opposition to Christ will be abolished. Jesus will rule thoughout all eternity along with God the Father. There must and will always be authority. And the authority is that of the triune God of the universe.
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Well, it certainly doesn't appear to be very plain to YOU.
Please attempt to refrain from expressing yourself in such an unprofessional manner.
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Wow. "For HE [Jesus] must REIGN, UNTIL...". THIS couldn't be any plainer.
I'll answer one more and I'm done with this:
The mediatorial reign of Christ in the Millennial kingdom will be succeeded by His eternal reign along with the Father and Holy Spirit.
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All men SHALL be made righteous. Paul was very clear on this point. You just don't want it to be so. Why? Perhaps you think you deserve salvation because of something YOU did that most others did NOT do. Am I right? I thinks so. I believe this to be true as I used to be like you. You now have a right to BOAST, if you think that YOU will be saved and not your neighbor.
Eph 2:8-9
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [that FAITH is] NOT of yourselves: it is the GIFT of God: 9 Not of works [ of ANY KIND], lest any man should BOAST"
Salvation is the work of Jesus Christ, ALONE.
Proof:
Mark 10:26-27
"And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves , Who then can be saved? And Jesus looking upon them saith , With MEN it is IMPOSSIBLE, but not with God: for with God ALL things are possible. [including the salvation of ALL MEN]"
1 John 4:14
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son TO BE the Saviour of the WORLD."
Paul declares:
"EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY TONGUE shall CONFESS that Jesus IS Lord".
When a man confesses Jesus as their Lord, they essentially BECOME a "believer". So, you are right. Only believers will be made righteous.
A person obviously has to BELIEVE before they are "made righteous". But unfortunately, you still believe the lie that a man must make "a free will decision" to "become a believer" during their natural life, or it will be too late. This is completely UNscriptural, not to mention blasphemous!
The world will learn righteousness THROUGH Judgment:
Isaiah 26:9
"For WHEN Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth [at the Great White Throne JUDGMENT], the inhabitants of the WHOLE WORLD will LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS".
God doesn't save people IN their sins. He saves people FROM their sins.
Well, I've made my peace. You can accept this truth, or deny it. It's up to you. I'm out.
And again, this gets into a discussion on ET versus UR which has been temporarily banned on this forum, and is not the topic of this thread anyway.
Suffice it to say that justication is the opposite of condemnation and with that in mind simply go to passages such as John 3:18, and John 3:36.
Last edited by Michael Way; 01-17-2011 at 10:25 AM..
I read the sticky and didn't see anything about universalism being a forbidden topic.
This is a quotation from the sticky pertaining to the debate between ET and UR.
'such, there will hereby be a closing of threads that pertain to this subject, in the best interest of the Christianity forum. This forum was initially founded based on a place where Christians of all denominations could come to peacefully discuss and/or debate the various tenets of the Christian faith and beliefs. However, due to the plethora of threads in which flaming and contentious posts have resulted, there will be a hold put on such threads for an unspecified period of time.'
The meaning of aion and the words derived from it such as aionios has been decussed at length on this forum. Both aion and words derived from it have a range of meaning from an indefinite period of time but not endless, to an indefinite period because endless.
You ask where I learned that 'eis ton aiona tou aionos' is the most emphatic way of expressing the concept of eternity.
I learned about that by researching what such noted authorities on the matter had to say about it, such as Hermann Sasse and R. C. H. Lenski, as well as Alan Gomes who is Associate Professor of the Dept of Theology at Talbot School of Theology.
At the following links you can read Dr. Gomes paper on the subject.
Refer back to the links which have been provided above and read them carefully.
You will find also by refering to the aforementioned post #203 that aionios was used outside of the Bible to express the concept of eternity by men such as Philo, Aristotle, and Plato.
This is now getting into a discussion of ET versus UR, which has been temporarily banned on this forum and will not be pursued on this thread.
Again, this is getting into a decussion of ET versus UR and will not be decussed on this thread as per the temporary ban on the subject. Feel free to go though my past threads on the matter.
The Trinity has been discussed at length on this forum. Refer back to my prior threads such as ...
All rule which is in opposition to Christ will be abolished. Jesus will rule thoughout all eternity along with God the Father. There must and will always be authority. And the authority is that of the triune God of the universe.
Please attempt to refrain from expressing yourself in such an unprofessional manner.
The mediatorial reign of Christ in the Millennial kingdom will be succeeded by His eternal reign along with the Father and Holy Spirit.
And again, this gets into a discussion on ET versus UR which has been temporarily banned on this forum, and is not the topic of this thread anyway.
Suffice it to say that justication is the opposite of condemnation and with that in mind simply go to passages such as John 3:18, and John 3:36.
Mike, I'm still trying to understand your thinking on aionios. Are you saying that aionios means ETERNITY (as having no beginning and no ending) or are you saying it just means FOREVERMORE (meaning it has a beginning but no ending)?
For example, if your saying aionios means ETERNITY then that means Jesus will always reign and HAS always reigned in the past. It would mean there was never a time at which Jesus didn't reign.
trettep, to save myself some time, simply refer to Apologetics Press - The Eternality of Hell [Part I] about the 6th paragraph or so down from the top. Definitions from noted authorities are provided. I am in agreement with these.
And as God, Jesus Christ has reigned over creation from the moment He brought it into existence. Along with God the Father.
I read through you link. It takes into account a method of looking a couple of verses to support its position that aionios means eternal but completely ignores those (using the same method) that would show that it cannot mean eternal.
Yeah Mike that is what I believe so you are acknowledging you believe as I do on this?
The very last sentence that I wrote in the 1st post of this thread (My thread) was this...
''So Jesus will turn over the Millennial kingdom to God, and time will give way to eternity future, and the triune God will rule over all.''
Jesus is part of the triune God and will rule forever.
The very subject of this thread.
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