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This statement makes absolutely NO SENSE at all. A “will” that involves INFLUENCES and CAUSES, is obviously and logically NOT FREE.
I perceive it just fine Mike. It is you who cannot perceive what your own mouth says. You say this statement, but in your own understanding of ‘freewill’ you take the CAUSE out of the equation EVERY time. Like when you say this…
NO…the gospel is NOT the CAUSE that gives a person a choice of “yes” or “no”. The HEARING (understanding) of the gospel is what CAUSES a person to choose “YES” (those who hear will NEVER choose “NO”). In the same respects, NOT HEARING (understanding) the gospel is what CAUSES a person to choose “NO” EVERYTIME (those who do NOT understand will NEVER choose “YES”).
And WHO gives this understanding again? To those who understand, this HEARING (understanding) is GIVEN FIRST Mike.
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know (Gk: understand) the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
And to those who do NOT understand, it is simply because God has NOT given them the “ears that hear” (understanding).
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
What you are not understanding here Mike, is that the CHOICE can NOT be made unless an INFLUENCE “CAUSES” one to choose. There is only ONE CAUSE sir, and it exists BEFORE the choice is even made. Therefore, WITHOUT the cause, a choice can NOT be made. Just answer a few questions…
If satan (CAUSE) was NOT in the garden, would Eve had still CHOSEN to eat of it? Gen 3:13
If the one did NOT put away his wife (CAUSE), would she commit adultery? Mat 5:32
If the Beast did NOT CAUSE to receive a mark, would they STILL CHOOSE to receive it? Rev 13:16
If Saul did NOT compel them (CAUSE), would they have STILL CHOSEN to blapheme? Act 26:11
If God did NOT turn their heart (CAUSE), would they have CHOSE to hate His people? Psa 105:25
If God did NOT CAUSE one to walk in His statutes, would they STILL CHOOSE to walk in them? Eze 36:27
If God did NOT send them a strong delusion, would they have STILL CHOOSE to believe a lie? II Thess. 2:11
If God did NOT put a lying spirit there (CAUSE), would they STILL be PERSUADED? (I Kings 22:22-23).
If God did NOT deceive the prophet (CAUSE), then would he STILL be DECEIVED then? Ezekiel 14:9
If God did NOT give the power (CAUSE), then would Pilate STILL have ANY POWER AT ALL? (John 19:11)
If the God’s Goodness did NOT lead one (CAUSE), then would one STILL REPENT? (Rom. 2:4)
If Jesus did NOT choose someone (CAUSE), would they STILL CHOOSE him? Joh 15:16YE HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME, but I have chosen you!!!!
If your carnal/fleshly nature did not CAUSE you to sin, would you still sin? Does a physically DEAD man STILL sin?
I can list many MANY more Mike. I don’t know how else to explain it to you. This is very hard for you to understand, and I am at a loss of why you can not. The CAUSE is always ONE, not TWO. The CAUSE is the GOAL. If the CAUSE merits a person to choose “YES”, then you will, without a doubt, choose YES. But the SAME cause will NOT EVER allow you to choose “NO”.
If God HIDES (CAUSE) something from you Mike, you WILL NEVER…EVER…EVER find it (EFFECT), …..
· Mat 11:25 because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent,..
…unless, that is UNLESS, God reveals (CAUSE) it to you, that which was hidden (EFFECT).
· ……and hast revealed them unto babes.
If God gives (CAUSE) you the eyes to see, then you will see spiritual truth (EFFECT),
· .. Mat 13:11..Because it is given unto you to know
UNLESS, God has BLINDED (CAUSE) you from seeing spiritual truth, then you will NEVER…EVER see it (EFFECT),
· …. but to them it is not given….also see Rom 11:8
Your understanding of choose ‘yes’ or ‘no’, totally leaves out the CAUSE. That is what ‘freewill’ theology does. To find out the CAUSE of why someone chooses YES then keep asking the question, “WHY?”. The same is for why they choose NO.
Here is a good example in scriptures.
Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up (IN THE FUTURE!!), and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
Deu 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, BEFORE I HAVE BROUGHT THEM INTO THE LAND which I sware.
Now, sir Mike, this is pretty cut and dry here. God lays out an EFFECT here that WILL, without a doubt, happen. And He says this BEFORE any choices are ever given in the first place. So accordingly to what has ALREADY left His mouth here, if from HERE ON OUT, He then gives then choice such as:
You can choose either to ***** after gods, or not. ‘yes’ or ‘no’.
You can choose to either forsake me, or not. ‘yes’ or ‘no’
You can choose to break my covenant, or not. ‘yes’ or ‘no’
Now what do you think they BETTER choose here Mike. They BETTER choose to actually DO all of these things, because it has ALREADY been spoken of that they WILL (that is BEFORE the choices were even asked of them).
Now we are talking about ONLY the EFFECT here, without the CAUSE. There is a cause to every effect, so what is the reason for them doing this. WHY are they doing these things? Well, because they can do NO GOOD apart from God. They are sinners, they will sin, NO MATTER WHAT. They were BLINDED and DEAF to His ways.
Deu 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
They are sinners and they will ALWAYS choose the wrong, unless God INFLUENCES, MANIPULATES, CAUSES, or brings about circumstances to CAUSE them to choose righteously. Ever since God the day that God TOLD them what they would choose, He “CAUSED to see/hear” a very few.
You say that God says “Choose Me, YES or NO”, but you never discuss what CAUSES them to choose yes or no. Again, ‘volition’ is just mere WILL. Volition WITHOUT CAUSES is “freewill”, and obviously does NOT exist. Just because you keep repeating it does not make it true Mike. I still have not received one example from yours or the bible choices that were FREEEEEEE of a CAUSE.
This statement makes absolutely NO SENSE at all. A “will” that involves INFLUENCES and CAUSES, is obviously and logically NOT FREE.
I perceive it just fine Mike. It is you who cannot perceive what your own mouth says. You say this statement, but in your own understanding of ‘freewill’ you take the CAUSE out of the equation EVERY time. Like when you say this…
NO…the gospel is NOT the CAUSE that gives a person a choice of “yes” or “no”. The HEARING (understanding) of the gospel is what CAUSES a person to choose “YES” (those who hear will NEVER choose “NO”). In the same respects, NOT HEARING (understanding) the gospel is what CAUSES a person to choose “NO” EVERYTIME (those who do NOT understand will NEVER choose “YES”).
And WHO gives this understanding again? To those who understand, this HEARING (understanding) is GIVEN FIRST Mike.
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know (Gk: understand) the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
And to those who do NOT understand, it is simply because God has NOT given them the “ears that hear” (understanding).
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
What you are not understanding here Mike, is that the CHOICE can NOT be made unless an INFLUENCE “CAUSES” one to choose. There is only ONE CAUSE sir, and it exists BEFORE the choice is even made. Therefore, WITHOUT the cause, a choice can NOT be made. Just answer a few questions…
You don't comprehend things very well. Here is what I said in post #174.
'As I have already made abundantly clear, man's free will operates in relation to the principle of cause and effect. Get over your hangup concerning the word 'free.' Free will simply means that you are free to decide between one thing or another and accepting the consequences of that decision. Free will does not operate independently of the principle of cause and effect. That should be simple enough for all to understand.
When presented with the gospel message you are caused to make a decision either for or against the gospel. You are free to make the choice of 'yes' or 'no'. '
Quote:
If satan (CAUSE) was NOT in the garden, would Eve had still CHOSEN to eat of it? Gen 3:13
If the one did NOT put away his wife (CAUSE), would she commit adultery? Mat 5:32
If the Beast did NOT CAUSE to receive a mark, would they STILL CHOOSE to receive it? Rev 13:16
If Saul did NOT compel them (CAUSE), would they have STILL CHOSEN to blapheme? Act 26:11
If God did NOT turn their heart (CAUSE), would they have CHOSE to hate His people? Psa 105:25
If God did NOT CAUSE one to walk in His statutes, would they STILL CHOOSE to walk in them? Eze 36:27
If God did NOT send them a strong delusion, would they have STILL CHOOSE to believe a lie? II Thess. 2:11
If God did NOT put a lying spirit there (CAUSE), would they STILL be PERSUADED? (I Kings 22:22-23).
If God did NOT deceive the prophet (CAUSE), then would he STILL be DECEIVED then? Ezekiel 14:9
If God did NOT give the power (CAUSE), then would Pilate STILL have ANY POWER AT ALL? (John 19:11)
If the God’s Goodness did NOT lead one (CAUSE), then would one STILL REPENT? (Rom. 2:4)
If Jesus did NOT choose someone (CAUSE), would they STILL CHOOSE him? Joh 15:16YE HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME, but I have chosen you!!!!
If your carnal/fleshly nature did not CAUSE you to sin, would you still sin? Does a physically DEAD man STILL sin?
I can list many MANY more Mike. I don’t know how else to explain it to you. This is very hard for you to understand, and I am at a loss of why you can not. The CAUSE is always ONE, not TWO. The CAUSE is the GOAL. If the CAUSE merits a person to choose “YES”, then you will, without a doubt, choose YES. But the SAME cause will NOT EVER allow you to choose “NO”.
If God HIDES (CAUSE) something from you Mike, you WILL NEVER…EVER…EVER find it (EFFECT), …..
· Mat 11:25 because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent,..
…unless, that is UNLESS, God reveals (CAUSE) it to you, that which was hidden (EFFECT).
· ……and hast revealed them unto babes.
If God gives (CAUSE) you the eyes to see, then you will see spiritual truth (EFFECT),
· .. Mat 13:11..Because it is given unto you to know
UNLESS, God has BLINDED (CAUSE) you from seeing spiritual truth, then you will NEVER…EVER see it (EFFECT),
· …. but to them it is not given….also see Rom 11:8
Your understanding of choose ‘yes’ or ‘no’, totally leaves out the CAUSE. That is what ‘freewill’ theology does. To find out the CAUSE of why someone chooses YES then keep asking the question, “WHY?”. The same is for why they choose NO.
Here is a good example in scriptures.
Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up (IN THE FUTURE!!), and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
Deu 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, BEFORE I HAVE BROUGHT THEM INTO THE LAND which I sware.
Now, sir Mike, this is pretty cut and dry here. God lays out an EFFECT here that WILL, without a doubt, happen. And He says this BEFORE any choices are ever given in the first place. So accordingly to what has ALREADY left His mouth here, if from HERE ON OUT, He then gives then choice such as:
You can choose either to ***** after gods, or not. ‘yes’ or ‘no’.
You can choose to either forsake me, or not. ‘yes’ or ‘no’
You can choose to break my covenant, or not. ‘yes’ or ‘no’
Now what do you think they BETTER choose here Mike. They BETTER choose to actually DO all of these things, because it has ALREADY been spoken of that they WILL (that is BEFORE the choices were even asked of them).
Now we are talking about ONLY the EFFECT here, without the CAUSE. There is a cause to every effect, so what is the reason for them doing this. WHY are they doing these things? Well, because they can do NO GOOD apart from God. They are sinners, they will sin, NO MATTER WHAT. They were BLINDED and DEAF to His ways.
Deu 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
They are sinners and they will ALWAYS choose the wrong, unless God INFLUENCES, MANIPULATES, CAUSES, or brings about circumstances to CAUSE them to choose righteously. Ever since God the day that God TOLD them what they would choose, He “CAUSED to see/hear” a very few.
You say that God says “Choose Me, YES or NO”, but you never discuss what CAUSES them to choose yes or no. Again, ‘volition’ is just mere WILL. Volition WITHOUT CAUSES is “freewill”, and obviously does NOT exist. Just because you keep repeating it does not make it true Mike. I still have not received one example from yours or the bible choices that were FREEEEEEE of a CAUSE.
You can NOT change your spots Mike, but God CAN.
Take Care
Joe
Your definition of freewill is wrong. Leave out the philosophical and psychological attempts of those who attempt to determine whether man has freewill or not. It is nothing more or less than the ability to say 'yes' or 'no'. To say 'this' or 'that.'
Man has the freedom to say 'yes' or 'no' to the gospel and reap the results of his decision. When man hears the gospel message, the Holy Spirit makes the issue clear. And man, in full understanding of the issue can say 'NO'.
You know, I keep telling you that it's white, and you then say that I don't understand that it's white, and then you proceed to tell me that it's white.
You don't comprehend things very well. Here is what I said in post #174.
Sir Mike...
You dont comprehend what comes out of YOUR OWN mouth very well. Again and again you say stuff like this...
Quote:
'As I have already made abundantly clear, man's free will operates in relation to the principle of cause and effect.
Yep...get rid of the word "free" in this statement and I would be inclined to agree with you 100%. The statement without the word "free", then it would be a perfect definition for WILL or Volition.
Quote:
Get over your hangup concerning the word 'free.'
The word 'freewill' is obvously the combination of 2 root words Mike. You constantly give us the defintion of the word "will". So tell ya what, give us the defintion of the word "free" sir and then I will stop 'hanging up' on it. What are you afraid of. Just give us the defintion, for it is obvious you dont like MY definition of it, or ANY dictionaries definition of it for that matter. Again you say...
Quote:
Free will simply means that you are free to decide between one thing or another and accepting the consequences of that decision.
Then you totally contradict your OWN statement by saying...
Quote:
Free will does not operate independently of the principle of cause and effect. That should be simple enough for all to understand.
"Free will does not operate independently"...eh. Then it is pretty funny that the SYNONYM for the word 'free' is INDEPENDENT, which pretty much makes your statement here CONTRADICTING. Actually a definition of the word 'free' IS simply "INDEPENDENT". You condradict yourself at every turn on this 'freewill' thingy Mike. Again you say....
Quote:
When presented with the gospel message you are caused to make a decision either for or against the gospel.
Yep...CAUSED by WHAT Mike???? (Your own words actually answer this later on). Yet some more definitions for us all....the definition of CAUSE is:
Definition:
be the reason for, bring about,
Synonyms:
effect, MAKE, create, produce
Yep someTHING either MAKES one choose "yes". OR, respectively, a DIFFERENT THING will MAKE one choose "no".
Lets see how this all lines up to what you say next:....
Quote:
You are free to make the choice of 'yes' or 'no'. '
Did you NOT just say that one is CAUSED (or MADE) to choose??? You contradict yourself again. If you MAKE your child mop the floor, then he is obviously NOT FREE to do otherwise.
Quote:
Your definition of freewill is wrong. Leave out the philosophical and psychological attempts of those who attempt to determine whether man has freewill or not. It is nothing more or less than the ability to say 'yes' or 'no'. To say 'this' or 'that.'
Given all the evidence here Mike, it is obvously you who are wrong at this. Aside from the fact that you are, indeed, philosophically and psychologically wrong at your point. You are also wrong SCRIPTURALLY. I think it pretty telling that you can't answer any of the questions I give you. Again, you contradict yourself, for this statement....
Quote:
Man has the freedom to say 'yes' or 'no' to the gospel and reap the results of his decision.
Again, totally contradicts this statement....
Quote:
When man hears the gospel message, the Holy Spirit makes the issue clear.
Notice the contrasting words "freedom" and "makes". One totally contradicts the other. And again, sir Mike, who GIVES them "ears to hear"????
Quote:
And man, in full understanding of the issue can say 'NO'.
No....the man that is NOT GIVEN the UNDERSTANDING (ears to hear) WILL ALWAYS and UNDOUBTEDLY say 'NO'.
The ones given "full understanding" WILL UNDOUBTEDLY say 'YES'.
Im sorry Mike, but it has been repeated shown that you your theology does NOT stand up to SCRIPTURE. If you would, could you please tell us the CAUSE of WHY most say NO. And the CAUSE of WHY some say YES.
Quote:
You know, I keep telling you that it's white, and you then say that I don't understand that it's white, and then you proceed to tell me that it's white.
Yes, you keep telling me that it's white and I proceed to tell you that it's white. But your understanding of it is BLACK (not white as you say). You are the one painting the contradition here Mike, not I.
Either something does NOT cause/make you do something (FREE)..
..or something DOES cause/make you to do something (DEPENDENT on the CAUSE)
You dont comprehend what comes out of YOUR OWN mouth very well. Again and again you say stuff like this...
Yep...get rid of the word "free" in this statement and I would be inclined to agree with you 100%. The statement without the word "free", then it would be a perfect definition for WILL or Volition.
The word 'freewill' is obvously the combination of 2 root words Mike. You constantly give us the defintion of the word "will". So tell ya what, give us the defintion of the word "free" sir and then I will stop 'hanging up' on it. What are you afraid of. Just give us the defintion, for it is obvious you dont like MY definition of it, or ANY dictionaries definition of it for that matter. Again you say...
Then you totally contradict your OWN statement by saying...
"Free will does not operate independently"...eh. Then it is pretty funny that the SYNONYM for the word 'free' is INDEPENDENT, which pretty much makes your statement here CONTRADICTING. Actually a definition of the word 'free' IS simply "INDEPENDENT". You condradict yourself at every turn on this 'freewill' thingy Mike. Again you say....
Yep...CAUSED by WHAT Mike???? (Your own words actually answer this later on). Yet some more definitions for us all....the definition of CAUSE is:
Definition:
be the reason for, bring about,
Synonyms:
effect, MAKE, create, produce
Yep someTHING either MAKES one choose "yes". OR, respectively, a DIFFERENT THING will MAKE one choose "no".
Lets see how this all lines up to what you say next:....
Did you NOT just say that one is CAUSED (or MADE) to choose??? You contradict yourself again. If you MAKE your child mop the floor, then he is obviously NOT FREE to do otherwise.
Given all the evidence here Mike, it is obvously you who are wrong at this. Aside from the fact that you are, indeed, philosophically and psychologically wrong at your point. You are also wrong SCRIPTURALLY. I think it pretty telling that you can't answer any of the questions I give you. Again, you contradict yourself, for this statement....
Again, totally contradicts this statement....
Notice the contrasting words "freedom" and "makes". One totally contradicts the other. And again, sir Mike, who GIVES them "ears to hear"????
No....the man that is NOT GIVEN the UNDERSTANDING (ears to hear) WILL ALWAYS and UNDOUBTEDLY say 'NO'.
The ones given "full understanding" WILL UNDOUBTEDLY say 'YES'.
Im sorry Mike, but it has been repeated shown that you your theology does NOT stand up to SCRIPTURE. If you would, could you please tell us the CAUSE of WHY most say NO. And the CAUSE of WHY some say YES.
Yes, you keep telling me that it's white and I proceed to tell you that it's white. But your understanding of it is BLACK (not white as you say). You are the one painting the contradition here Mike, not I.
Either something does NOT cause/make you do something (FREE)..
..or something DOES cause/make you to do something (DEPENDENT on the CAUSE)
Take care
Joe
You insist on giving freewill a meaning it doesn't have. Freewill means that you can make a choice to do one thing or another. That's all it means.
With regard to salvation, it means that a person is free to accept or reject Christ as Savior. It's that simple.
You don't comprehend things very well. Here is what I said in post #174.
'As I have already made abundantly clear, man's free will operates in relation to the principle of cause and effect. Get over your hangup concerning the word 'free.' Free will simply means that you are free to decide between one thing or another and accepting the consequences of that decision. Free will does not operate independently of the principle of cause and effect. That should be simple enough for all to understand.
When presented with the gospel message you are caused to make a decision either for or against the gospel. You are free to make the choice of 'yes' or 'no'. '
Your definition of freewill is wrong. Leave out the philosophical and psychological attempts of those who attempt to determine whether man has freewill or not. It is nothing more or less than the ability to say 'yes' or 'no'. To say 'this' or 'that.'
Man has the freedom to say 'yes' or 'no' to the gospel and reap the results of his decision. When man hears the gospel message, the Holy Spirit makes the issue clear. And man, in full understanding of the issue can say 'NO'.
You know, I keep telling you that it's white, and you then say that I don't understand that it's white, and then you proceed to tell me that it's white.
So then, my dog has free will? And my computer has free will? My computer makes choices all the time, and so does my dog.
You insist on giving freewill a meaning it doesn't have. Freewill means that you can make a choice to do one thing or another. That's all it means.
With regard to salvation, it means that a person is free to accept or reject Christ as Savior. It's that simple.
here is the definition of "free will" from the websters ...
Quote:
Free will - The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
And you again you contradict the words of Paul ...
1 Cor 2:14(amplified)
But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.
A person who has not been regenerated and quickened by the spirit of God cannot choose to believe, because he thinks that the things of the spirit are foolish.
No free will here ...
Again, I will believe the words of Paul over your words.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-22-2011 at 07:23 PM..
With regard to salvation, it means that a person is free to accept or reject Christ as Savior. It's that simple.
I don't completely disagree with this, except to say that every moment you choose Christ or do not choose Christ. In other words - today I walk by faith and abide in joy, yet tomorrow I may sink into doubt and fear which would rob me of my salvation. Salvation is NOW. It is not about the future. The salvation of our souls is NOW. .... remember the beautiful song, "I Need Thee Every Hour" ???
Ironmaw...your wrong about everything we are saying, just as I believe you are wrong about what the scriptures are teaching. God only saves...God only has immortality. God desires worship and man to come to Him. If that was not the case, then I would be inclined to agree with you, but it isn't. We have been over this before again and again...and still, you are oblivious to it...or blind...who knows? Maybe your paradigm shuts the curtains on it....On FREE WILL, the Calvinists are right...so are the Arminians. You just have to saturate it, apart from debating it, and decide whether it is, what is clear to so many of us. Think about that one for a change.
here is the definition of "free will" from the websters ...
My handy dandy little old Webster's New World Dictionary Second College Edition gives a nice simple one word definition for freewill: Voluntary.
Freewill does not mean that you can make a choice without regard for the consequences. It simply means that you have the ability to make a choice. You will bear the consequences of your choice.
Quote:
And you again you contradict the words of Paul ...
1 Cor 2:14(amplified)
But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.
A person who has not been regenerated and quickened by the spirit of God cannot choose to believe, because he thinks that the things of the spirit are foolish.
No free will here ...
Again, I will believe the words of Paul over your words.
You do not believe the words of Paul and neither do you understand them. Your Calvinistic beliefs are heresy. Faith preceeds regeneration and the Bible clearly states that.
Gal 3:2 'This is the only thing I want to find out from you; did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith. Did you understand the meaning of the verse? Hearing the gospel message resulted in faith which resulted in receiving the Spirit. Simple and easy to understand.
Here. Try this one.
Ephesians 1:13 'In Him you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise... Do you comprehend the meaning? First you listen to the gospel message, as a result you believe and are then sealed in Christ.
When the gospel message is heard by the unbeliever the Holy Spirit in His ministry of common grace, convicts the unbeliever of the sin of unbelief, and of rightousness, and of judgment. (John 16:8-11)
The hearer of the gospel can then say 'yes' or 'no' to the gospel message.
"We are not predestinated to sin, that’s choice; but we are predestined to Holiness.
Deliverance rests on the will of God, not upon the choices or self-determination of prideful men.
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unto this day.
