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There was this fellow Jacob. He wrestled with God....Well, you know the story.
Anyway, reading the Book of Exodus we find:
EX 1:1-13
1 Now these are the names of the children of Israel who came to Egypt; each man and his household came with Jacob: 2 Reuben, Simemon, Levi, and Judah; 3 Issachar, Zebulun, and Benjamin; 4 Dan, Naphtali, Gad, and Asher. 5 All those who were descendants of Jacob were seventy persons (for Joseph was in Egypt already). 6 And Joseph died, all his brothers, and all that generation. 7 But the children of Israel were fruitful and increased abundantly, multiplied and grew exceedingly mighty; and the land was filled with them.
8 Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. 9 And he said to his people, “Look, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we; 10 come, let us deal shrewdly with them, lest they multiply, and it happen, in the event of war, that they also join our enemies and fight against us, and so go up out of the land.” 11 Therefore they set taskmasters over them to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh supply cities, Pithom and Raamses. 12 But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and grew. And they were in dread of the children of Israel. 13 So the Egyptians made the children of Israel serve with rigor.
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So the Children of Israel are descendants of Jacob (aka Israel). Today and in the time of Jesus they were known as Jews.
The Sabbath Commandment is for the Jews.
Romans 2:29
No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God. Romans 2: 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism. John 1:12
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
I myself am not assuming, however it sounds like man is trying to use his own reasoning for not obeying the commandment. I am not a Jew, so this is not for me----( I, myself am,) however, if I know this pleases God to obey the Sabbath, whether I am a Jew or Gentile, would I not want to do what pleases God? Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, do I not want to spend time with Him, rest with Him?? God knows man needs to be refreshed and strengthened by Him.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith".."This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,"
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law
while at the same time
"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!" Romans 6:15
Well brakelite, just what do you think "By no means! ".........means ?
John 3: 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”
If anyone has the Spirit, obeying God's commands will be done by the Spirit and not by the written code or human effort. There will be no rebellion against the commands of God, they will not be burdensome. You will have peace and joy in all His commands of His moral law. You will know and understand, they are a blessing and you will be blessed by keeping them, if the Spirit of God lives in you.
Now how did you forget Romans 14:5? You have said all of this to prove how your legalism stands over Jesus' finished work on the cross for all of us. The Apostle Paul said that each individual Christian should decide whether to observe a Sabbath rest, “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind” (Romans 14:5). We are to worship God every day, not just on Saturday or Sunday.
Please, isn't there already enough of this amateurish and weak exegesis from anti-Sabbatarians without you adding to it? There is a saying in real estate which I am sure you have heard of; location, location, location.
A very similar saying can be applied to good Bible exegesis. Context, context, context.
Note the context in the passage leading up to Romans 14:5: 1 ¶ Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
This passage has nothing to do with Sabbath keeping, the word Sabbath isn't even mentioned. It is a discussion on fasting and diet on certain days, which practice the more legalistic Jews desired to impose on Gentile believers.
Please, isn't there already enough of this amateurish and weak exegesis from anti-Sabbatarians without you adding to it? There is a saying in real estate which I am sure you have heard of; location, location, location.
A very similar saying can be applied to good Bible exegesis. Context, context, context.
Truer words were never typed . . . but you do not follow them. The single most important CONTEXT within which the scriptures are to be SPIRITUALLY discerned is the TRUE NATURE and MOTIVES of God . . . for which we ONLY have the "mind oi Christ." Not even the prophets of the OT knew that because they were under the veil of ignorance. ONLY the "mind of Christ" reveals the TRUE NATURE and MOTIVES of God . . . so any use of the wrathful Jehovah God context corrupts the intent and biases the understanding of the Spirit of the scriptures to the "letter which killeth."
Truer words were never typed . . . but you do not follow them. The single most important CONTEXT within which the scriptures are to be SPIRITUALLY discerned is the TRUE NATURE and MOTIVES of God . . . for which we ONLY have the "mind oi Christ." Not even the prophets of the OT knew that because they were under the veil of ignorance. ONLY the "mind of Christ" reveals the TRUE NATURE and MOTIVES of God . . . so any use of the wrathful Jehovah God context corrupts the intent and biases the understanding of the Spirit of the scriptures to the "letter which killeth."
You would do well to consider the wrathful Jehovah God in the context of Calvary. Particularly when you consider it was the very same God Who gave the law on Sinai and proclaimed the curses for those who disobeyed it, as He Who gave His own life a ransom for mankind on the cross.
The very same God Who pronounces death upon sinners died instead of those sinners who would believe. Wrathful? Yes. Merciful and forgiving? Yes. Gracious? Yes. Yet the same God, yesterday, today, and forever.
You would do well to consider the wrathful Jehovah God in the context of Calvary. Particularly when you consider it was the very same God Who gave the law on Sinai and proclaimed the curses for those who disobeyed it, as He Who gave His own life a ransom for mankind on the cross.
The very same God Who pronounces death upon sinners died instead of those sinners who would believe. Wrathful? Yes. Merciful and forgiving? Yes. Gracious? Yes. Yet the same God, yesterday, today, and forever.
Horsepuckey. The wrathful Jehovah descriptions and beliefs are the result of savagery and carnal ignorance that should long ago have been eradicated from the interpretations of scriptures through spiritual maturity and revised understanding from the UNAMBIGUOUS example of Christ!. The retention of this ancient ignorance is the major apostasy that has gripped the church since the death of the apostles. The failure to mature in knowledge and spiritual understanding is the major crime of the mainstream religious leaders for over 2000+ years. Stagnating at the level of 3rd century ignorance and misunderstanding has been unconscionable!
For shame! There has been neither love nor the Holy Spirit behind this massive corruption. i suspect a very different unloving and destructive spirit playing on our human weaknesses is to blame. We must cast him out in the name of Jesus the Christ and our Father in heaven and let the "love of God and each other" guide our understanding with the help of the Holy Spirit.
Horsepuckey. The wrathful Jehovah descriptions and beliefs are the result of savagery and carnal ignorance that should long ago have been eradicated from the interpretations of scriptures through spiritual maturity and revised understanding from the UNAMBIGUOUS example of Christ!. The retention of this ancient ignorance is the major apostasy that has gripped the church since the death of the apostles. The failure to mature in knowledge and spiritual understanding is the major crime of the mainstream religious leaders for over 2000+ years. Stagnating at the level of 3rd century ignorance and misunderstanding has been unconscionable!
For shame! There has been neither love nor the Holy Spirit behind this massive corruption. i suspect a very different unloving and destructive spirit playing on our human weaknesses is to blame. We must cast him out in the name of Jesus the Christ and our Father in heaven and let the "love of God and each other" guide our understanding with the help of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus gave a Bible study to two disciples the very day of the resurrection. Read it in Luke 24:13-32.
In this study Jesus, "beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself."
Those same "savage, ignorant, carnal, corrupt, unloving" spokesmen for the Most High God Jesus quoted saying in effect, "hey guys, they were talking about Me".
Jesus gave a Bible study to two disciples the very day of the resurrection. Read it in Luke 24:13-32.
In this study Jesus, "beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself."
Those same "savage, ignorant, carnal, corrupt, unloving" spokesmen for the Most High God Jesus quoted saying in effect, "hey guys, they were talking about Me".
And that IS the primary purpose of the OT. The purpose was to prophesy about the Christ and provide the necessary validation so we would know when He arrived and what to expect in the future to prove it was actually Him. The OT was NOT to be used to understand the mind of God . . . they were too ignorant to overcome their carnal savagery. That is why we have the "mind of Christ" and His unambiguous example of the mind of God.
Rejoicer, to be honest I do not see how your post here quoted has anything whatsoever to do with the subject in hand. No-one in the entire thread has even vaguely intimated that one can be saved by keeping the law.
Then why all the trouble of starting a thread trying to point out that the Sabbath is Saturday, that we ought to worship God on Saturday because that was a commandment? If it doesn't save you or keep you from being saved that you worship on Saturday or Sunday, what difference does it make?
Why all the arguing and defending of it?
Quote:
Your point is the perfect straw-man argument. True what you said, but nothing to do with the topic. To opine that Sabbath keepers ought not keep the Sabbath because one cannot be saved by keeping the law, is no more relevant than if I should suggest to you that you should steal your neighbours car because you cannot be saved by keeping the law.
Then what is the point? That you will receive more blessings because you worship on Saturday?
I've said all along, every day should be Holy, because we live every day to please God. Someone blasted me and claimed I had no authority to claim each day Holy, (which I didn't, I just quoted Christ). So, in their mind only Saturday is Holy.
And you are right, if I stole my neighbor's car, after I have received salvation, I would not lose my salvation, (it doesn't depend on my obeying the law) but I might sure end up in jail. However, the mind of Christ keeps me from stealing anything, and the mind of Christ has not revealed to me that my worshipping on Sunday is wrong.
Quote:
Previously you said that "Christ is the end of the law for them that believe". I agree with that of course, after all, it's scripture. But does that mean what you seem to claim it to mean? That because Jesus is the 'end of the law' or as you said elsewhere, that He 'fulfilled' the law, does that mean that we can now, because we "believe" we can, disobey the law with impunity?
Now you're are going and putting words into what I said. Where did I say you could go on sinning with impunity? That's your take on it. What I meant was that "I don't stop sinning just because I become a child of God through Jesus Christ" - no one stops sinning. And if only Saturday is Holy, and only those that worship on Saturday are obeying "the law", then apparently they feel they are not sinning, because they are obeying the law and I'm not.
That couldn't be farther from the truth. John said it very clearly -
1 John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Quote:
That we can transgress that law and sin? Paul answers that question in Romans 6:1. Shall we sin that grace may abound? God forbid!
That would be to say that I will purposely sin because I believe that by sinning, God is able to supply more Grace through forgiveness. That is what a person who hasn't really accepted Jesus but thinks he has, would say, in order to continue doing whatever wrong they are doing, and no where have I said that. I could twist that around and say that you imply that you no longer sin, because you don't want to give the appearance that you believe that by sinning you are causing grace to abound?
Quote:
Also in a previous post you said that the Sabbath was given only to the Jews, and therefore is not applicable to the Gentiles. Have you read the book of Revelation recently? The New Jerusalem has 12 gates, and each gate is named for a specific tribe of Israel Where then is the gate for the Gentile? There are none for Gentile believers. Why? Because the Gentile is now a grafted branch into Israel, the root tree.
So what tribe do we belong to? Which gate are we to use? Did it occur to you that they may have been named in "honor" of the twelve tribes? Do you really believe that each person can only go through the gate that applies to "his" tribe? If you do, what tribe do we belong to? There is also a scripture in Revelation that says:
The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Law. Rev 21:4
By your logic, only those that belong to the families of the twelve apostles can walk on those twelve foundations? Rather silly if you ask me.
In my city we have many streets named for famous people, it doesn't mean that only relatives of those people can use those streets.
Quote:
We are all of Israel if we are of Christ. In fact, if you don't identify yourself as such there is no entrance for you in heaven. Which gate would you enter through?
I enter through the gate of Christ. That is all I have to concern myself with, that I believe and that I have made Jesus Lord of my life. When I sin, I am convicted and I repent, and I do the works he has prepared for me to do, while here on earth. Which gate will you enter through?
Quote:
Notice also that in the new earth all the people of God will still be observing the Sabbath. (See Isa 62.) Or will you stay home then because you are not a Jew? Note also, that those Sabbaths are a holy convocation for worship. Just as they were intended to be in the OT and as they are now.
You must have a different Bible, I did not find any reference to the Sabbath in Isaiah 62. I still observe the Sabbath, but for me the Sabbath is Sunday, the day I rest and worship. I guess you were of the opinion of the Pharisees, that Jesus broke the Sabbath, because he dared to "heal" which is considered work? Tsk, tsk, Saturday is more important to you than Jesus!
Quote:
John 5:18
For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Please, isn't there already enough of this amateurish and weak exegesis from anti-Sabbatarians without you adding to it? There is a saying in real estate which I am sure you have heard of; location, location, location.
Therein lies your whole misunderstanding. I've not seen any trace of any "anti-Sabbatarians" - just honest scriptural refuting of what some Sabbatarians are trying to imply on this thread - that they are the only ones obeying God's commandment, because they worship on Saturday, and that Saturday is the day that God ordained for worship for Israel and all followers of Jesus, and anyone worshiping on any other day is therefore wrong (sinning) against God.
Wasn't that the whole intent of the OP? To suggest that Acts 20:7 did not change the Sabbath day? In other words, we should all be worshipping on Saturday, because that is the only day that God honors as His day of worship?
To try and imply that the OP had other motives and that those that are refuting the claims are "anti-Sabbatarians" is totally hilarious. Most Christians that worship on Sunday have no problem at all with those who wish to worship on Saturday, we just have a problem with those that worship on Saturday who try to imply that because we worship on Sunday we are disobedient to God.
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