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I am a member of an United Methodist Church. Congregation is fairly small, averages about 50-60 members a Sunday. My problem is that none of the members are tithing. Out of the members, I would say that there are 6-8 members who are consistent tithers. The reason I am complaining is because of the lack of consistent tithers, our church bills are beginning to fall behind....We are basically having to rob Peter to pay Paul to pay bills.....Now I know that we are living in dire economic times but what does Malachi 3:10 say. Also I hate to say it...but I also think our members will not pay because our current pastor is very well off. But as a congregation, we should not be envious and jealous because the pastor is well off... I know you can't give what you dont have...but come on $5 from a grown adult every Sunday....I mean you can do better than that. Don't members know that blessings are being blocked.....As a single person, I give a 10th of my paycheck everytime I get paid and I have to say Im better off now than before when I wasnt tithing......You have to trust him....Please chime in on this dilemma and thank you for letting me vent.
Westcoastbabe, It would be good to move this, as suggested, into the Christian area. They will give you more of the answers you are looking for.
If I may give you my answer, biblical tithing cannot be done today because there are no Temple priests to receive them. The biblical 10% was for the Temple, and it was given in order to feed the priests, the poor, and the givers. It was not for the Temple building itself or for its upkeep. Offerings took care of those things.
I know that many of today's pastors think they take the place of Temple priests, but they don't. They usually only use the first 2/3s of the Bible to teach tithing and beating children. I know that sounds cruel, but it is true for most. The 1st 2/3s of the Bible simply cause too much inconvenience.
If a Christian pastor started preaching that adultry, for example, was unacceptable (as the first 2.3s says), s/he could lose several members. If s/he taught that consulting the ouiji board, seances, fortune-tellers, tarot cards, mediums, and horoscopes was sin and unacceptable (as the Torah says), more contributors would leave. If s/he taught that sexual relations outside of marriage was a sin, several more would leave. I could go on.
That out of the way, that does not mean that we should not give; we should give. If we gave as the Bible teaches, we would likely be giving about 40% -- I am not sure how much, because I have not studied an accumulated amount, but that is close. But we are not commanded to give to build fancy new buildings, bring in entertainment, build a new gym, or any "build-it-and-they-will-come idea.
We are to pay those who work for the congregation and to give to the poor. The rest is choice. To practice what is taught to give for the Temple and priests is a good idea -- good practice -- and either we are too poor o do this, or we are uninformed, or we are too self-absorbed. For Israel, when one had plenty, that one gave so that the poor would be "covered."
This is not a churchy answer; it is my answer according to what I see the Bible says.
Basically When believers do not help the church financially, and the church has to cut programs and when that does not Work , were if there is debt load to large, and God knows the faithlessness or the plan which God has for the church failed, then the church will have to close and the believers will dispersed to other churches....... See God will supply all your need according to His riches in Glory by Christ Jesus .... Comes from Philippians 4: 13-20 .....Apostle Paul was thanking the Lord for His Philippians Church who gave an offering to Jesus for Paul and His ministries many times , even saying there `I can do all things through Christ which strengthen me ``....... See there are thousands of Church failures in the last generation as believers fail to hold up Jesus and the church , but Jesus today has a stronger more refined church with power from Heaven which came out
The Bible mentions a time when Israel excitedly gave and gave and gave, until the priests had to tell them to stop giving. Can you imagine that happening in the church in the U.S.? The preacher having to step up to the pulpit and to say, "Stop giving! You have given so much we don't know what to do with it!" Nyaaahh. The church would just build a crystal cathedral -- then go into debt and beg for more.
In the U.S., we are all spoiled and we have no idea how to treat our gifts. We aren't giving to the poor, because we are giving to the government which we assume is giving correctly to the poor.
(Money given to the Temple was a form of tax, and this was given in addition to the tax of whatever government was holding Israel hostage at whatever given time. What is the average percentage of tax in the U.S.? 35%?)
Yet the poor we know personally are going without. Why? Because they are truly poor and we ought to be helping them -- AND givng to our place of worship?
I am a member of an United Methodist Church. Congregation is fairly small, averages about 50-60 members a Sunday. My problem is that none of the members are tithing. Out of the members, I would say that there are 6-8 members who are consistent tithers. The reason I am complaining is because of the lack of consistent tithers, our church bills are beginning to fall behind....We are basically having to rob Peter to pay Paul to pay bills.....Now I know that we are living in dire economic times but what does Malachi 3:10 say. Also I hate to say it...but I also think our members will not pay because our current pastor is very well off. But as a congregation, we should not be envious and jealous because the pastor is well off... I know you can't give what you dont have...but come on $5 from a grown adult every Sunday....I mean you can do better than that. Don't members know that blessings are being blocked.....As a single person, I give a 10th of my paycheck everytime I get paid and I have to say Im better off now than before when I wasnt tithing......You have to trust him....Please chime in on this dilemma and thank you for letting me vent.
A business that cannot make a profit, should close its doors.
Otherwise, it will end up with a sizable debt to be paid by others.
I was offered an Associate Pastors' position at a church.
Eighty-five thousand a year, a credit card with all expenses paid by the Congregation!
Until, I exposed the Pastor for his self-serving motives of making a living by swindling people.
Disclaimer: Not all are that way, but there is only one Church of Christ.
Tithing is as much a viable principle today as it ever was, but, our 'stewardship' should entail much more than just our money. It also pertains to our time, possessions ... everything we own. Further, this is not a 'legalistic' lien on our stuff, but, about honoring God first in our lives ... instead of just giving him lip-service. (eg; Jesus said, "you honor me with your lips, but, your hearts are far from me").
Does God need our money or want our stuff? Of course not! -- "My father owns the cattle on a thousand hills." But, giving, working and otherwise participating in what God is doing, opens a door into our lives through which God can bless and multiply what we have. When we see God working in this manner, just as when we see Him answer prayers, it enables OUR faith to grow. As our faith grows, we draw closer in relationship with God. -- This is another of those principles of God that people never understand ... until they submit and obey. Then, suddenly, it becomes clear!
Those who persistently depend only on their own 'wisdom' and mock the things of God ... "stumble in the darkness, but, do not know what makes them stumble." There is a whole 'world' out there that is much bigger than the one you see with your eyes ... of which you know nothing about.
Isaiah 1:10-17 Hear the word of the LORD, You rulers of Sodom. Give ear to the instruction of our God, you people of Gomorrah.
What are your multiplied sacrifices to me? I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed cattle. I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats. When you come to appear before me, who requires of you the trampling of my courts?
Bring your worthless offerings no longer for your incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath, the calling of assemblies—I cannot endure your iniquity and solemn assembly.
I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. So, when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide my eyes from you. Yes, even though you multiply your prayers (for all to hear), I will not listen.
Your hands are covered with blood. Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean.
Remove the evil of your deeds from my sight. Cease to do evil, and learn to do that which is good. Seek justice (that which is right).
Reprove the ruthless and defend the orphan. Plead for the widow.
Exodus 22:21-23 You shall not wrong a stranger or oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. You shall not afflict any widow or orphan. If you afflict him at all, and if he does cry out to Me, I will surely hear his cry.
Matthew 10:11-15 And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city. As you enter the house, give it your greeting.
If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace. Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words,
as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. Truly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Day
of Judgment, than for that city.
I am a member of an United Methodist Church. Congregation is fairly small, averages about 50-60 members a Sunday. My problem is that none of the members are tithing. Out of the members, I would say that there are 6-8 members who are consistent tithers. The reason I am complaining is because of the lack of consistent tithers, our church bills are beginning to fall behind....We are basically having to rob Peter to pay Paul to pay bills.....Now I know that we are living in dire economic times but what does Malachi 3:10 say. Also I hate to say it...but I also think our members will not pay because our current pastor is very well off. But as a congregation, we should not be envious and jealous because the pastor is well off... I know you can't give what you dont have...but come on $5 from a grown adult every Sunday....I mean you can do better than that. Don't members know that blessings are being blocked.....As a single person, I give a 10th of my paycheck everytime I get paid and I have to say Im better off now than before when I wasnt tithing......You have to trust him....Please chime in on this dilemma and thank you for letting me vent.
If you feel inspired to give, then give, don't worry about what other people do or don't do. In the other hand, if you worry about the church and their balance books, then maybe you think of other ways to provide for the church to make up for the difference. Can you give 20% to make up for someone who is not giving any? Is the church finances your main concern, or are you just irritated by the fact that you give, and others don't? Are you giving out of obligation, or are you giving because you want to ?
As a minister who has twice led churches from times of poor financial management through to more solid foundation I would like to offer insight.
First the issue of tithing. It is not a common concept today, so please don't look down on those who do not. I always told my congregants that rent/food come first, then look at donating to the church. If you can give 10%, great, if $10, great, if only $0.10, great. Whatever you can afford.
The real issue here is not one of tithing, but one of a mismatch between the congregational wants and needs, and the church. Rarely will people donate to a church to fund the general operation of it (salary, heat etc.). They want to see their money put to "good use". For example they will write a check for an outreach dinner but not to pay the monthly power bill.
When I see a church that is having that much difficulty in paying their bills, I ask the minister and church council a) what ministries and programs do you offer and b) are they the ministries and programs your congregants actually want you to offer? If not, then why are you doing them? If you are not doing any programs or run no ministries apart from Sunday, then what are you doing the other 6 days of the week?
As a rule it is wise to check in with your congregation every year or two and ask them what they want done; what programs, services, ministries, repairs etc. do they want accomplished in the next 12 months. Then hold them to it. If the funds are not there to pay for what they asked for, then you have every right to remind them that at the least general meeting they agreed that X was important and $Y were needed to make it happen. Unfortunately we have received only 1/2 of $Y and can't fulfill what they have requested. It is followed up with the question - what do you want to do about it?
Finally the church council needs to be very proactive. Let them know weekly/monthly income and expenses and how they don't match. Remind them you are being good stewards of their resources BUT there is insufficient resources to do what they have asked be done. A study was done a few years ago that said in the average church every butt in the seat costs $35 in overhead, ministries and programs. If people are not donating at least that, then they are costing the church money and hindering its true purpose - ministry and mission.
If you want more information, feel free to PM me. I am happy to share other resources if you think they will help.
If the Pastor is so well off, why is the church "robbing Peter to pay Paul"? If the people are struggling so bad, what are the others doing about it to help them? What about laying others burdens upon our shoulders? Where is the intimacy and love toward one another? This should be an issue talked about among the brethren, but I guess the mainstream Christian "church" has grown to big for this.. Where's the heart? Where's the connection to one another? Only empty religion. What a shame.
Matthew 24
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
i think that the people have grown accustomed to the government helping. that is probably there are so many welfare reciepients withing the body of christ. We should help each other, but it is hard when many just come on Sunday and dissapear for the rest of the week. How are othe rmembers to know who needs help when those in need dont express their issues. i am not rich by any standards, but i rather give money to a person in need than to an organization.
There is no biblical "tithing" as such today, because there is no temple with Levite priests. All of that expired some 2000 yrs ago with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, and us now being under the New Covenant. (not the old covenant, where tithing was LAW!) On the other hand, GIVING (not tithing) is taught in the New Testament: give to your local church, give to the poor, the needy, etc. There is no set rule of "10% of your income", etc. Give what you are able...
If people are not sufficiently supporting (giving to) a local church so that it can pay the bills, then do they really actually believe in what is being taught there, or is it just a "social" gathering? If you are so poor that you can't give a dime, then shouldn't the others be giving to you? I have been in some churches that would spend their last "tithe" dollar on the building, but not help the homeless, the widows, the poor, etc.
Bud
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