The phrase 'Forever and Ever' means 'unending', as a simple comparison shows. / The Various Expressions of Eternity. (hell, punishment)
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It is said by those who deny eternal punishment that the word aiónos and its variations can never be used to refer to things eternal. But a simple comparison of two verses show this to be untrue.
Those two verses are Luke 1:33 and Hebrews 1:8
Luke 1:33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever (eis tous aiónas - to the ages), and His kingdom will have no end." It is stated here that Jesus' kingdom will have no end. His kingdom will not come to an end. There will not be an end to the duration of His kingdom. It is to the ages, it is forever and ever, it will not end.
Hebrews 1:8 But of the Son He says, ''Your throne O God, is forever and ever (ton aióna tou aiónos - to the age of the age), and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.
It is easily seen that the phrase 'His kingdom will have no end' in Luke 1:33, and the phrase, ''Your throne O God, is forever and ever'', in Hebrews 1:8 are synonymous terms. Jesus' kingdom will have no end but is forever and ever.
This means that the Greek phrases, 'eis tous aiónas' - to the ages, and 'ton aióna tou aiónos' - to the age of the age are also synonymous terms. Both phrases mean 'ouk estai telos' - 'there will not be an end'
The writers of Scripture had various ways of expressing the concept of eternity.
Simple singular: ...unto the age - eis ton aióna - forever; John 8:51,52; 1 John 2:17
Simple plural: ...unto the ages - eis tous aiónas - forever; Luke 1:33, Rom. 16:27
Compound singular: ...unto the age of the age - ton aióna tou aiónos - forever and ever; Heb. 1:8
Compound mixed: ...unto the age of the ages - tou aiónos ton aiónon - forever and ever; Eph. 3:21
Compound plural: ...unto the ages of the ages - eis tous aiónas ton aiónon - forever and ever; Phil. 4:20, Rev. 20:10
The simple singular is the basic way of referring to eternity and is translated as forever.
Regarding John 8:51-52, most English translations don't include the word 'forever' - eis ton aióna - to the age, but it is there in the Greek. See John 8:51 Biblos Interlinear Bible Bringing it into the English, it would read "Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death forever." I suppose that would be considered redundant, but I rather like it.
The Simple plural, Compound singular, Compound mixed, and Compound plural are Hyperbolic expressions of eternity - exaggerated dressed up ways of referring to eternity for emphasis.
Now look at 2 Tim. 2:10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal (aióniou; Singular tense) glory.
The salvation which is in Christ Jesus is unending. It is eternal. And so is the glory which goes with it.
It is true that 'aiónos' - 'age' refers to periods of time which come to an end. For example, see Matthew 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age (aiónos)?" It is equally true that 'aiónios' and its variations are used IN THE GREEK to express the concept of eternity.
Now, I will remind objectors to this, of whom I am sure there will be some, that 'forever and ever' (ton aióna tou aiónos - to the age of the age) in Hebrews 1:8 is synonymous with 'will have no end' in Luke 1:33. Both refer to the duration of Jesus' throne and kingdom, which is endless. And there is no getting around that fact. The various expressions shown above are various expressions of eternity with reference to the future.
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-13-2012 at 02:51 PM..
Sorry to be the one to break this to you Mike but "for ever and ever" does not, nor can possibly mean "endless."
BTW, "aionios" does not mean "age."
Aionios is not used in Matthew 24:3. They asked Him when is the conclusion of this AION.
But be that as it may, you state aionios can mean an age in one verse but "eternity" in others? Anybody ever tell you that is just not sane? God is not the author of confusion and that is confusion.
Getting back to "for ever and ever." In the first place, if one goes by the Greek it would be "for the evers of the evers" with two plural "evers" like in Rev.1:6. There is also the "eon of the eons" where you have a singular "eon" in relation to the plural eons. And you have the phrase "eon of the eon" where there are two singular eons.
So how can each of these phrases mean the exact same thing? They don't.
If "for ever" means eternity, what does "for ever AND ever" mean? Does one eternity end and another eternity take its place?
Just as in the tabernacle the holiest place is called "the Holies of the Holies" thus also there are the Eons of the Eon. They are not holies tumbling upon holies for eternity and neither are the eons tumbling upon eons for eternity.
It is said by those who deny eternal punishment that the word aiónos and its variations can never be used to refer to things eternal. But a simple comparison of two verses show this to be untrue.
Those two verses are Luke 1:33 and Hebrews 1:8
Luke 1:33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever (eis tous aiónas - to the ages), and His kingdom will have no end." It is stated here that Jesus' kingdom will have no end. His kingdom will not come to an end. There will not be an end to the duration of His kingdom. It is to the ages, it is forever and ever, it will not end.
::Sigh:: More of the deception of your mentors, Mike. The word "end" is telos which has nothing to do with time or duration. It means: "a terminus, the limit or end point at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time). The "precepts and doctrines of men" you have been indoctrinated to at such a young age have far too many errors like this in them to even begin to scratch the surface in addressing them in a forum like this. Fortunately our God is Love and most of this nonsense will not matter at all.
THAT'S WHAT I DON'T GET (sorry for the outburst, lol)!!! How can people be fighting so fiercely over the one side that they are also diminishing the other side!? What I mean is, how can you say hell isn't eternal when that would mean heaven is also not eternal? You can't get one without the other, or it would be "unfair" on either side. If you're trying to diminish hell, you're also trying to diminish heaven and I'm surprised no one has even addressed this in the numerous threads I have read. Unless I'm looking at this too superficially...???
THAT'S WHAT I DON'T GET (sorry for the outburst, lol)!!! How can people be fighting so fiercely over the one side that they are also diminishing the other side!? What I mean is, how can you say hell isn't eternal when that would mean heaven is also not eternal? You can't get one without the other, or it would be "unfair" on either side. If you're trying to diminish hell, you're also trying to diminish heaven and I'm surprised no one has even addressed this in the numerous threads I have read. Unless I'm looking at this too superficially...???
Sorry to be the one to break this to you Mike but "for ever and ever" does not, nor can possibly mean "endless."
BTW, "aionios" does not mean "age."
Aionios is not used in Matthew 24:3. They asked Him when is the conclusion of this AION.
But be that as it may, you state aionios can mean an age in one verse but "eternity" in others? Anybody ever tell you that is just not sane? God is not the author of confusion and that is confusion.
Getting back to "for ever and ever." In the first place, if one goes by the Greek it would be "for the evers of the evers" with two plural "evers" like in Rev.1:6. There is also the "eon of the eons" where you have a singular "eon" in relation to the plural eons. And you have the phrase "eon of the eon" where there are two singular eons.
So how can each of these phrases mean the exact same thing? They don't.
If "for ever" means eternity, what does "for ever AND ever" mean? Does one eternity end and another eternity take its place?
Just as in the tabernacle the holiest place is called "the Holies of the Holies" thus also there are the Eons of the Eon. They are not holies tumbling upon holies for eternity and neither are the eons tumbling upon eons for eternity.
A comparison from the Greek of Luke 1:33 and Heb. 1:8 shows that the English phrase 'forever and ever' is synonymous with endless.
'The kingdom' in Luke 1:33 is synonymous with 'Your throne' in Hebrews 1:8.
The kingdom that 'will have no end' in Luke 1:33 is synonymous with 'Your throne O God is forever and ever' in Hebrews 1:8.
eis tous aiónas - to the ages in Luke 1:33 is synonymous with ton aióna tou aiónos - to the age of the age in Hebrews 1:8.
I already showed the variations of these phrases, and explained them.
Simple singular: ...unto the age - eis ton aióna - forever; John 8:51,52; 1 John 2:17
Simple plural: ...unto the ages - eis tous aiónas - forever; Luke 1:33, Rom. 16:27
Compound singular: ...unto the age of the age - ton aióna tou aiónos - forever and ever; Heb. 1:8
Compound mixed: ...unto the age of the ages - tou aiónos ton aiónon - forever and ever; Eph. 3:21
Compound plural: ...unto the ages of the ages - eis tous aiónas ton aiónon - forever and ever; Phil. 4:20, Rev. 20:10
The Simple plural, Compound singular, Compound mixed, and Compound plural are Hyperbolic expressions of eternity - exaggerated dressed up ways of referring to eternity for emphasis.
All you've done is to bring up issues that were plainly addressed in the first post.
A comparison from the Greek of Luke 1:33 and Heb. 1:8 shows that the English phrase 'forever and ever' is synonymous with endless.
'The kingdom' in Luke 1:33 is synonymous with 'Your throne' in Hebrews 1:8.
The kingdom that 'will have no end' in Luke 1:33 is synonymous with 'Your throne O God is forever and ever' in Hebrews 1:8.
Repeating your mentors' errors will not make them true, Mike.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
::Sigh:: More of the deception of your mentors, Mike. The word "end" is telos which has nothing to do with time or duration. It means: "a terminus, the limit or end point at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time). The "precepts and doctrines of men" you have been indoctrinated to at such a young age have far too many errors like this in them to even begin to scratch the surface in addressing them in a forum like this. Fortunately our God is Love and most of this nonsense will not matter at all.
::Sigh:: More of the deception of your mentors, Mike. The word "end" is telos which has nothing to do with time or duration. It means: "a terminus, the limit or end point at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time). The "precepts and doctrines of men" you have been indoctrinated to at such a young age have far too many errors like this in them to even begin to scratch the surface in addressing them in a forum like this. Fortunately our God is Love and most of this nonsense will not matter at all.
It is a simple comparison of Scripture with Scripture which shows that the English word 'forever' means 'will not come to an end', and that these English words and phrases are accurate translations from the Greek.
The word telos, as I showed in the original post, does indeed mean 'end.' And the word 'ouk' means 'not'.
The kingdom WILL NOT END, which means that it is forever and ever. This was all plainly spelled out so that no one should have any difficulty understanding it.
It is a simple comparison of Scripture with Scripture which shows that the English word 'forever' means 'will not come to an end', and that these English words and phrases are accurate translations from the Greek.
The word telos as I showed on the original post does indeed mean 'end.' And the word 'ouk' means 'not'.
The kingdom WILL NOT END, which means that it is forever and ever. This was all plainly spelled out so that even someone who claims to have a Ph.D should be able to comprehend it.
It does NOT refer to TIME, Mike. Telos is strictly an end point as in a boundary . . . NOT in duration. In genetics they refer to telomeres . . . the end points of a gene sequence.
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