The phrase 'Forever and Ever' means 'unending', as a simple comparison shows. / The Various Expressions of Eternity. (Gospel, beliefs)
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Rev 11:15
And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!
1 Cor 15
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
So we are told that Christ reigns "forever and ever", yet He only reigns till He has put all enemies under His feet - the last enemy being death - upon which ultimately the Son ultimately subjects Himself to God - so that God is all in all.
When God is all in all, there is no more need for reigning as all are now one with God.
So how to explain Luke 1:33? A better translation:
Luke 1:33 His father, and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation.
Christ reigns for the eons, but that which is produced ie. His Kingdom, continues on without end, without any further reigning required (as God will be all in all).
Therefore the KJV translation of Rev 11:15 "forever and ever" is INCORRECT.
The kingdom WILL NOT END, which means that it is forever and ever. This was all plainly spelled out so that no one should have any difficulty understanding it.
Because the kingdom will not end, DOES NOT mean Christ will reign it forever. The Kingdom can continue without reign, as ultimately God will be all in all.
It does NOT refer to TIME, Mike. Telos is strictly an end point as in a boundary . . . NOT in duration. In genetics they refer to telomeres . . . the end points of a gene sequence.
That which has no end does not terminate, but continues on forever. The word 'ouk' means 'not' and negates the meaning of 'telos' which means 'end'. 'ouk estai telos' means 'there will not be an end'.
The kingdom which will have no end will be forever.
The fact that the kingdom is said to have no end emphasizes the fact that it will last forever. This is not a difficult thing to understand.
That which has no end does not terminate, but continues on forever. The word 'ouk' means 'not' and negates the meaning of 'telos' which means 'end'. 'ouk estai telos' means 'there will not be an end'.
The kingdom which will have no end will be forever.
The fact that the kingdom is said to have no end emphasizes the fact that it will last forever. This is not a difficult thing to understand.
NO. It means it will have no boundaries. It will extend everywhere. It has nothing to do with duration or TIME.
Rev 11:15
And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!
1 Cor 15
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
So we are told that Christ reigns "forever and ever", yet He only reigns till He has put all enemies under His feet - the last enemy being death - upon which ultimately the Son ultimately subjects Himself to God - so that God is all in all.
When God is all in all, there is no more need for reigning as all are now one with God.
So how to explain Luke 1:33? A better translation:
Luke 1:33 His father, and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation.
Christ reigns for the eons, but that which is produced ie. His Kingdom, continues on without end, without any further reigning required (as God will be all in all).
Therefore the KJV translation of Rev 11:15 "forever and ever" is INCORRECT.
Good post Lego.
When you explain it like that how can you deny it being a believer ?. Maybe we just want eternal torment to be true.
Because the kingdom will not end, DOES NOT mean Christ will reign it forever. The Kingdom can continue without reign, as ultimately God will be all in all.
Your throne in Hebrews 1:8 is synonymous with the kingdom in Luke 1:33.
Revelation 22:1 shows Jesus Christ on the throne along with the Father, AFTER the end of the Millennium. Jesus' mediatorial reign during the Millennium will give way to His eternal rule. And Jesus Christ is God.
The point of this thread by the way is not to prove that Jesus Christ will reign forever, although it does prove that; but rather, the point of the thread is to show that the English word 'forever' means 'without end', and that the English word 'forever', and the phrase 'forever and ever' are accurate translations of the Greek words. In other words, forever means eternity.
When you explain it like that how can you deny it being a believer ?. Maybe we just want eternal torment to be true.
You may have hit the nail on the head. Sometimes we want to believe that the "really bad" (Hitler is the stock example here, overused but easy to pull out so I'm using him) people will be punished...and punished...and punished...and punished...and punished. I think that's normal. So-and-so hurt me or someone I love or one of my ideals so badly, I just want to see him/her punished times a thousand.
I believe that the idea of pain upon pain upon pain rather than a swift end as one's "punishment" is a very human one but I don't see why God would feel that way. That would mean God was literally enjoying pain. If it were just a question of putting people aside, he'd let them fall asleep at death so they could never hurt another person.
They could also never experience the positive sides of a happy afterlife, whatever those may be. Obviously that's a permanent consequence too.
But there would be NO reason to punish painfully every day for an eternity. What would that serve? It wouldn't teach the person a lesson since it's too late for him/her at that point. It couldn't possibly gratify the people who do make it into heaven -- anyone who would enjoy watching people scream and beg endlessly for an eternity could not POSSIBLY be sinless and good enough to go to heaven. It couldn't be to make the devil happy, why would God be required to make the devil happy? It can't be because souls can't die and they have to go somewhere, as supposedly, eventually the devil and hell will be destroyed.
So the ONLY reason for permanent ongoing torture could be that God liked it. And if God likes eternal torture then he probably doesn't want the "good people" in heaven anyway. How could anyone love goodness and also love looking down to see people having their entrails pulled out, their eyes poked out, limbs torn off and chewed?
I do believe that the idea of all this torment came from ill, exceedingly wrathful people, beginning some few hundred years after Jesus' death at least as far as we can tell looking at literature, and that it is still an idea many of us secretly, childishly harbor: that anyone who hurts us pays...times ten. Times eternity, actually.
NO. It means it will have no boundaries. It will extend everywhere. It has nothing to do with duration or TIME.
You are making empty arguments. That which has no end continues forever.
Hebrews 1:8 But of the Son He says, ''Your throne O God, is forever and ever (ton aióna tou aiónos - to the age of the age), and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.
Luke 1:33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever (eis tous aiónas - to the ages), and His kingdom will have no end." It is stated here that Jesus' kingdom will have no end. His kingdom will not come to an end. There will not be an end to the duration of His kingdom. It is to the ages, it is forever and ever, it will not end.
Revelation 22:1 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb'. Jesus is shown on the throne with the Father after the Millennium has ended. After the end of His mediatorial reign during the Millennial kingdom, His eternal reign continues on throughout the eternal future.
Rev 11:15
And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!
1 Cor 15
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
So we are told that Christ reigns "forever and ever", yet He only reigns till He has put all enemies under His feet - the last enemy being death - upon which ultimately the Son ultimately subjects Himself to God - so that God is all in all.
When God is all in all, there is no more need for reigning as all are now one with God.
So how to explain Luke 1:33? A better translation:
Luke 1:33 His father, and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation.
Christ reigns for the eons, but that which is produced ie. His Kingdom, continues on without end, without any further reigning required (as God will be all in all).
Therefore the KJV translation of Rev 11:15 "forever and ever" is INCORRECT.
It is the mediatorial reign of Christ during the Millennial kingdom which comes to an end and gives way to His eternal reign. Jesus Christ is shown on the throne with the Father in Revelation 22:1 after the Millennium has ended.
Again, the point of this thread is not to prove that Jesus will reign forever, althought it does prove that. But rather, the point of the thread is to show that the English words and phrases regarding eternity are correct translations from the Greek. Refer to the original post.
Forever and ever means exactly what it means. Forever. Some of you people look too much into things that aren't even there.
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