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Quit trying to move the goal posts, Twin. Let's lay this to rest for good ... You continually make the charge that URists say the subjective isn't necessary. Are you ready to concede the point that that is not the case?
If you are, then the conversation is moved forward. If not, you're stuck in a continuous loop of making a false statement that needs to be corrected.
I'm not moving any supposed goal post.
Never once have I stated that the goal post can be whatever you want it to be and in the end it would not make any difference whether the goal post had a particular color \ shape... you're still going to be saved.
And that's the point and you guy's know it. If all are saved despite what they currently believe, there is no reason for Jesus to have suffered and die.
God said more than just 'Jesus loves me this I know ... and
This is the type of rationalizing that God is going to bring to nothing as He is confounding the wisdom of the wise and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
I do believe there will be SEVERE penalties for those that are not preaching Salvation through the cross by Faith in Jesus Christ.
Continue in prideful rebellion or repent in Humble submission through Christ.
The fate for false teachers is "darkness reserved forever" according to 2 peter 2.
What do you think the penalty will be for attempting to lead Christ's sheep astray? Just read the book of Jude and 2 peter 2 to find out.
This has nothing to do with what I said to Finn, Twin. And I've already addressed your point in my previous post.
My question to Finn, and now to you, Twin, is why wouldn't you take comfort in the idea that others will be tormented for eternity if that is what you believe God's will is?
Have you never read what is under my name?
"Ask why me ... instead of why not them"
It's for people such like yourself. I take comfort that God has chosen me for no other reason than by his grace. That he has lead me to the truth and keeps me there.
Satan however challenges that as being unfair that God chooses while He holds others responsible for unbelief. As far as Satan is concerned, all of humanity should be condemned just like him and all of his satanic devils who followed him shortly after creation.
I'm not moving any supposed goal post.
Never once have I stated that the goal post can be whatever you want it to be and in the end it would not make any difference whether the goal post had a particular color \ shape... you're still going to be saved.
And that's the point and you guy's know it. If all are saved despite what they currently believe, there is no reason for Jesus to have suffered and die.
God said more than just 'Jesus loves me this I know ... and
The question is, are you ready to acknowledge that URists do not say that the subjective isn't necessary? (They simply disagree with you on physical death being a cut-off date for the subjective to occur.)
To demonstrate that Law was an inadequate basis for judging men, and to disqualify it as such. A novel way to ransom, huh?
Man was not able to satisfy God's justice/the law, and yet it had to be satisfied. What kind of justice dictates laws, but does not demand them to be fulfilled? It would not be law, it would be mockery of the law. Jesus died to satisfy God's justice. That's how serious God's law was. His justice demanded blood, and some people here judge His justice as "barbaric", "savage" and "monstrous", but it is what it is.
That was not all, God still demands that we die a physical death, sometimes a horrific one. That part of His justice also must be satisfied. And those who reject God's sacrifice will pay an eternal punishment. It is what it is.
Originally Posted by Eusebius twin.spin,
I'm curious why you continue to use a version of the Bible which uses the word "eternal"? especially when Jesus used the word "aionion." If Jesus wanted us to know there was such a thing as "endless" punishment He would have used the Greek word "aperantos."
It is impossible for aionion to mean "eternal" for the sole reason its noun form does not mean eternal. The adjective tells us of that which pertains to the noun it is derived from. No aion is eternal. The Bible says they all end.
Now then I will ask you another question and let's see if you have the manliness to answer me:
Why do you think Jesus would contradict Himself by telling His listeners that some will be eternally tortured but tell others that God will save all mankind? It does not good to say "God desires to save all mankind" because the Bible has God saying "All My desire I will do."
Also, why do you think God would renege on what Christ accomplished when Christ ransomed all mankind? Based on that ransoming God says He will save all mankind. But your theology has God being unjust by telling everyone Christ's death and Christ's ransom wasn't good enough.
Please don't just quote scriptures and expect that is good enough. I want you to answer my questions to the best of your abilities.
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Originally Posted by twin.spin
Eusebuis,
The reason that I do is simple ... because it is one of the variable words that can be used in English that scholars who are true linguistics use.
You have been shown many times before but have always decided to persue those who purposefully has chosen to limit it ... which could be for various reasons (some legitimate - others wrongfully purposeful agenda).
First of all twin.spin, I wish to thank you for answering me. I appreciate that.
I am curious if you are saying if one linguist says aionion can both mean eternal and not mean eternal that that's O.K.? That settles the issue? How many linguists does it take for your linguist to be wrong? One? maybe or two? or three? Do we decide these issues by linguists or by how God used the word? Because you do know there are some linguists who state it is improper to attach the idea of eternalness to Olam in the Old Testament from which the Septuagint assigned aion in its noun form and aionion to its adjectival form? And there are linguists who say aionion can't mean "eternal" in the N.T.
By the way, it is impossible for "aion" to mean both "age" and "eternal" since the Bible says all the aions end. Therefore aion must either always be "eternal" or always "age." We can only know which by how God used the word. Since we have definitive verses telling us the aions end, we know "eternal" cannot possibly be a correct translation of any "aion." Right? You follow me thus far?
Please give me one example in the bible or even in modern English where the adjective (used in a literal sense) is greater than the noun it is derived from.
Is "American" (adj.) greater than its noun "America"?
Is "Heavenly" (adj.) greater than its noun "Heaven"?
Is "Soulish" (adj.) greater than its noun "soul"?
In every one of the three examples above, each adjective has the duty of informing us of that which pertains to its noun.
For instance if I say "Obama is the **American** president," you'd know I was informing you his presidency pertains to **America,** right?
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The manly answer is that Jesus seems to be conflicting to you because you're either wantonly seeing to it that he does or that because of your insisting, you're being held from understanding.
I don't know what more can be said that you're usurping the will of God by changing "everyone who looks" (which has a different context in understanding) to "everyone will look". And because of that change, you're forcing other scriptures like:
So do you believe it is O.K. for Jesus to tell us to teach God will save all mankind and is the Saviour of all mankind (1 Tim.2:4-6; 4:10,11) while at the same time He plays the hypocrite by telling others He is actually going to eternally torture people? I never said "everyone will look." It is very clear that during the eons not everyone will be saved. During the thousand year eon there will be some whose dead bodies are cast into Gehenna. After the 1000 year eon there will be those cast into the second death. Does it cause you pause that I know this yet I still realize these judgments cannot undo what God's will is for all mankind?
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to say
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something that is not. And so the only conclusion you've settled on is that God is unfair \ unjust when in fact Jesus says quite the opposite: John 5:29-31
those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
But I do believe some will rise to be condemned. But the question needs to be asked "condemned to what?"
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By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me
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Condemning people to hell for their unbelief is a just judgment... so says Jesus.
I believe His judgment is JUST. He never said however that His judgment was, as you say "condemning people to hell." Now I'd agree with you if you said "condemning some people to Gehenna.
But where in the entire Bible is there just one verse that says "if you don't believe Jesus died for you, you will go to Hell"? It's not in there. But I do believe people will go to Gehenna and to the second death later on. And I still believe that, at the consummation of the eons God will save all because Christ ransomed all. There is just no way around this twin. I know I've asked you to do this before: Please study the word "ransom" and "redeem" in the entire Old Testament and know every animal and human ransomed had to be freed. Christ ransomed all mankind. But this does not mean they will be freed at the same time believers are. Not at all.
It's for people such like yourself. I take comfort that God has chosen me for no other reason than by his grace. That he has lead me to the truth and keeps me there.
Satan however challenges that as being unfair that God chooses while He holds others responsible for unbelief. As far as Satan is concerned, all of humanity should be condemned just like him and all of his satanic devils who followed him shortly after creation.
The point is, you all say that you can praise God no matter what. If you are praising God, you are offering God grateful homage for everything God does. If you can't take comfort in and be grateful for your belief that God will allow others to be tormented for eternity, that should raise a red flag in your mind and soul that what you are believing about God is not good. If you ARE grateful for the idea that others will be tormented for eternity, it should raise a red flag in your mind about the state of your own soul.
The point is, you all say that you can praise God no matter what. If you are praising God, you are offering God grateful homage for everything God does. If you can't take comfort in and be grateful for your belief that God will allow others to be tormented for eternity, that should raise a red flag in your mind and soul that what you are believing about God is not good. If you ARE grateful for the idea that others will be tormented for eternity, it should raise a red flag in your mind about the state of your own soul.
Are you greatful for war? How about famine? How abour rape? Disease? Torture? Mental torment? Death? Pain? Sorrow? There are many facts of life you do not have to be greatful for, but they are still facts of life and they do not go away by you denying them.
The point is, you all say that you can praise God no matter what. If you are praising God, you are offering God grateful homage for everything God does. If you can't take comfort in and be grateful for your belief that God will allow others to be tormented for eternity, that should raise a red flag in your mind and soul that what you are believing about God is not good. If you ARE grateful for the idea that others will be tormented for eternity, it should raise a red flag in your mind about the state of your own soul.
Dear God, I thank Thee that Thou tellest us to love them which hate us and do good to those who use and abuse us but YOU, Oh Great and Mighty God, we adore Thee that Thou hatest thine enemies and doest bad to those who abuse you. We thank Thee oh great and magnificently hypocritical God that we love greater than Thee. Your love is conditional whilst ours is unconditional. We thank Thee that Thou makest us to look good.
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Let's lay this to rest for good ... You continually make the charge that URists say the subjective isn't necessary. Are you ready to concede the point that that is not the case?
The question is, are you ready to acknowledge that URists do not say that the subjective isn't necessary? (They simply disagree with you on physical death being a cut-off date for the subjective to occur.)
