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Before interjecting, may I request a subtle distinction?
Are we discussing the International Church of Christ or the United Church of Christ?
Neither one This thread is about the nondenominational, autonomous Church of Christ. They all believe the same doctrine as far as the "Plan of Salvation", Lord's Supper and everything that Paul preached and instructed to the early church as he traveled around planting them in different places, but they differ in whether or not musical instruments should be allowed in worship service..
While in graduate school, I had an encounter with the Syracuse Church of Christ. At this point, I don't know if it was an ICOC affiliated congregation or an autonomous one. I'd like to describe the practices of this particular church first. During a time when I was having trouble finding a church in that location, I was invited by my one of my class mates to a "Bible Talk" which included about 25 people. After that, the Bible Talk leader asked me if I wanted to chat about the Bible some more with just the guys. I said, sure. Then, I was lead to a back room where the Bible Talk leader started going through certain verses that were all about salvation. Having been a Christian, I eventually said "why are we going through these particular verses?" I got no direct answer.
This lead to additional get togethers, which always involved at least two but usually three other people from the church. Now, I have shared my own conversion experience with several different people through the years and they have all been brought to tears. When I said it to these guys, however, they called merely "an emotional experience". I needed to be baptized in their church. They told me that no other church was actually practicing biblical principles. Because I was debating, they also told me that I was being "prideful".
Putting aside the doctrine for a moment, these spirtiually abusing practices are damaging and cult like. No one ever came out and said, hey we're the Syracuse Church of Christ and this is what we believe. It was done very subtly through rehearsed scriptures and comments.
I later learned out from the university that this group was banned for cult-like practices not surprisingly.
I hope that no one is stuck in one of these churches or has gone through anything like this.
in whether or not musical instruments should be allowed in worship service..
Now to the doctrine. I think it's clear that musical instruments should be permitted in a worship service. Psalm 92 states in relevant part:
"It is good to give thanks to the LORD
And to sing praises to Your name, O Most High;
To declare Your lovingkindness in the morning
And Your faithfulness by night,
3 With the ten-stringed lute and with the harp,
[With resounding music upon the lyre.
4 For You, O LORD, have made me glad by what You )have done,
I will sing for joy at the works of Your hands."
If it's good enough for the Psalmist to worship with instruments, then it's good enough for me too.
Yes, it is sad that many of these practices have taken place and I guess may still be taking place in some congregations. I experienced some of it, but it wasn't ingrained in the congregation because the elders finally realized what was going on, I believe. But I do know of young people who were affected by some of what went on. I do remember that we as college students and grad students in some of the group meetings would be made to feel guilty for not having brought in new converts. If this was questioned, then there were reprimands but I believe that the reason for all of this is because they (those who pushed this) wanted to spread what they believed to be the gospel and truly believed that those who were not a part of this (the Church of Christ) were going to go everlasting hell. They believed this because they did not believe that baptisms that took place in other denominations were valid, for the most part. God bless.
By the way, I had a room mate who lives or use to live in Syracruse who was a member of the Church of Christ there. Do they have several congregations there? God bless.
Shana, it has been almost ten years now, so the practices hopefully are not still being implemented. I have no doubts that those guys truly believed, through and through, that they needed to "disciple" me. It was clear that this doctrine was being pushed from the upper levels of the leadership.
Other than attending one service and the one Bible Talk, I never had any other encounters with the Syracuse church. However, I still keep tabs on them from time to time via the Internet. It seems that the church split into two groups, one loyal to Kip McKean and the other in a differnet direction. It's all very confusing to an outsider.
I remember going to a couple of Kip McKean's conferences and several retreats in the mountains. There were some nice things about the fellowship and I can say that when I was a member of the Church of Christ, I began to study the scriptures more because the emphasis was on learning the scriptures, so I am thankful for that. I hope that the cult like tactics are not still being used. Did you have a prayer partner? God bless.
Actually the thief was a special exception. But even if he hadn't been, baptism would still not be required of him, since baptism into the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (per Romans 6:3-4) did not yet exist. Christ was still alive when the thief was saved.
Respectfully disagreed. There are an overwhelming number of examples in the Bible that when read in harmony clearly demonstrate that no water baptism is required for salvation.
"If you declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." Romans 10:9-10.
"Then John gave this testimony: I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’" John 1:32.
"Then they asked him, 'What must we do to do the works God requires?'
Jesus answered, 'The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.' John 6:28-29.
"For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” John 6:35.
In my mind, when I read the New Testament, I believe that the spiritual baptism occurs when a person: (1) declares with his/her mouth that Jesus is Lord; and (2) believes in his/her heart that Jesus was raised from the dead. The water baptism is a symbolic public demonstration of this event.
Shana, I never had a prayer partner. I never got involved for long enough for any of that to happen. What is that like?
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This thread is about the nondenominational, autonomous Church of Christ. They all believe the same doctrine as far as the "Plan of Salvation", Lord's Supper and everything that Paul preached and instructed to the early church as he traveled around planting them in different places, but they differ in whether or not musical instruments should be allowed in worship service..