Only those who do good works will enter the kingdom of God. (beliefs, disciples)
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The righteous do the works of God, sinners do the works of man. Not knowing the difference are those who do not follow the prophets and the son of man.
As Jesus said; "The man who hears my words, and uses them, he is like a wise man who built his house on rock."
"In everything, do unto others as you would have done to you for this is the law and the prophets."
"What I have done, that is what you must do."
"Once you know all these things, blessed will you be if you put them into practice."
"By your words you'll be forgiven or by your words you'll be condemned."
"Anyone who hears my words and does not keep them I am not the one to condemn him for I did not come to condemn the world but to save it. Anyone who rejects me and does not accept my words he already has his judge, namely the words I've spoken that is what condemns him on the last day."
"A day is coming and truly has come when the dead will hear the voice of the son of God and those who have heard it shall live."
And the point remains that no kind of works, works of the Law OR works of grace are going to "earn" anything......BUT, if works do NOT follow it is also clear that the "belief" noted is of the same order as that of the demons who tremble, it is NOT saving belief and will do no more good than that of the demons.
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Originally Posted by Mike930
Spot on. I wonder why the legalists keep ignoring this point.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
No. What was said after 'BUT' is not spot on. Good works which are acceptable to God do not necessarily follow salvation. Everyone has works, either good or bad, humanly speaking, whether they are believers in Christ or not. But for the believer the issue is whether his works are produced by the energy of the flesh or under the filling of the Holy Spirit. While the unbeliever can have works which humanly speaking are good works, those works are not acceptable to God because they are only works of human righteousness. And as Isaiah 64:6 says, 'all of our righteousnesses are like filthy rags.' It doesn't say our 'unrighteousnesses', it says all of our 'righteousnesses.'
Likewise, the believer in Christ can have works which humanly speaking are good, but they are not acceptable to God because they are works which are produced by his own human righteousness and are called 'wood, hay, and stubble' in 1 Corinthians 3:12 and will be burned up at the judgment seat of Christ while the believer himself is saved.
The only works of the believer which are acceptable to God are works which the believer does when filled with the Spirit with the result being that the works produced are done in the power of the Spirit instead of being done in the energy of the flesh. The believer is commanded to be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18). This is not the same as being indwelt by the Spirit. Every church-age believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and cannot lose that indwelling. But the filling of the Spirit is lost when the believer sins. When the believer names the sin to God as per 1 John 1:9 the sin is forgiven and the believer is restored to fellowship which is also referred to as abiding in Christ. The believer cannot lose his eternal salvation, but sin puts the believer out of fellowship with God and into a state of carnality under the control of his old sin nature. If the believer never names or acknowledges his sins to God he stays out of fellowship and can not produce any works which are acceptable to God. It is quite possible for the believer who is eternally saved to never acknowledge his sins to God and remain in a continual state of carnality.
And the truth be told, there are unbelievers who can put many believers to shame in the works department. The belief that the believer will necessarily produce works which are acceptable to God is false.
By the way, James didn't make the comment about the demons also believing, but shuddering in James 2:19. It was his hypothetical opponent who said it in his argument against what James was saying. James in heading off possible objections to what he was saying adopted the position of an antagonist who disagreed with him but was missing James' point. James was simply saying that for the believer who is eternally saved to have a productive spiritual life he must be a doer of the word and not just a hearer of the word.
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Originally Posted by nateswift
Mike555, You dance all around the concept of works trying to make excuses but it is clear from many citations that good works ARE a necessary element accompanying belief. Look just a few verses earlier in James: 14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Then you misdirect:
The 'hypothetical opponent" (actually someone who shared James' view)and the extent of what he said would depend on punctuation that is not there. Context would indicate that the extent of his point would be "You have faith and I have works (in addition) demonstrate your faith without your works and I will demonstrate my faith BY my works." But, as I said it was not an opponent, but a hypothetical questioner who was illustrating the clear meaning of what James was saying in the whole section of his letter. Why you think there is some advantage in claiming that saving faith does not include a commitment to service in doing the things that were prepared for us as new creatures in Christ (according to Peter) I can't understand.
I am not going to participate in exchanging accusations. I don't dance or make excuses or misdirect. I am pointing out the reality of the carnal Christian, and of the backslidden or reversionistic believer who though eternally saved is continually out of fellowship with God and therefore devoid of spiritual production.
And what I said is clear enough. It is possible for a Christian to be perpetually carnal and able to produce only works which are done in the energy of the flesh and therefore not acceptable to God.
As I have stated many times, saying that works are not a requirement for salvation but then turning around and saying that if you are saved you will have works, is merely a backdoor way of introducing works as a requirement for eternal salvation.
And James hypothetical opponent was, as I said, missing the point of what James was saying which was that for the believer who is eternally saved to have a productive spiritual life, to be saved from having a non-productive spiritual life he must be a doer of the word and not just a hearer of the word. Salvation does not always refer to eternal salvation. The word is also used with regard to being saved or delivered in some temporal sense as is the case with James reference to the quality of the believer's spiritual life.
Last edited by Michael Way; 05-22-2014 at 01:52 PM..
I am not going to participate in exchanging accusations. I don't dance or make excuses or misdirect. I am pointing out the reality of the carnal Christian, and of the backslidden or reversionistic believer who though eternally saved is continually out of fellowship with God and therefore devoid of spiritual production.
And what I said is clear enough. It is possible for a Christian to be perpetually carnal and able to produce only works which are done in the energy of the flesh and therefore not acceptable to God.
As I have stated many times, saying that works are not a requirement for salvation but then turning around and saying that if you are saved you will have works, is merely a backdoor way of introducing works as a requirement for eternal salvation.
And James hypothetical opponent was, as I said, missing the point of what James was saying which was that for the believer who is eternally saved to have a productive spiritual life, to be saved from having a non-productive spiritual life he must be a doer of the word and not just a hearer of the word. Salvation does not always refer to eternal salvation. The word is also used with regard to being saved or delivered in some temporal sense as is the case with James reference to the quality of the believer's spiritual life.
Mike do you believe it is necessary to Love others to be saved? (this is a simple yes or no question).
As I have stated many times, saying that works are not a requirement for salvation but then turning around and saying that if you are saved you will have works, is merely a backdoor way of introducing works as a requirement for eternal salvation.
And this statement is in fact the cheap grace defined by Bonhoffer. When someone claims Christ but denies the cost of discipleship---well, that's not the Jesus I met.
When someone lays hold of the promises while hanging on to carnality---that's not the Jesus I met.
It's the same claim of "carnal" Christians about being born again while having the DNA of the devil coursing through their spiritual being.
Either one is born again in Christ and becomes a new creature, with new desires, new purposes, new spiritual insight, or he/she never died to their sin and remains separated from the fullness of God.
If we are really the children of God, He will over and over find ways to test the depth of our faith and commitment. If you find someone who was once a Christian but has now backslidden into a life that Satan would approve of, you can be sure that person was never "born again."
Mike do you believe it is necessary to Love others to be saved? (this is a simple yes or no question).
I usually give more than simple 'yes' or 'no' answers. The only thing necessary to be saved from the penalty of sin and therefore to be eternally saved is to believe in Jesus Christ which means to believe that He died for your sins and rose again and to therefore trust in Him alone for your salvation. That is the only thing necessary to enter into an eternal relationship with God.
Agape love is a matter of soul capacity and is a matter concerning the believer's spiritual life after having been saved. It is not a requirement to receive the free gift of eternal life. Cornelius and his household were eternally saved while listening to Peter even before he finished speaking as stated in Acts 10. He simply gave them the gospel, they believed it and received the Holy Spirit. No works of any kind on their part, no demonstration of love for others was involved. They didn't even get water baptized until after they had been saved. They simply believed the gospel message by which they received Christ as Savior.
Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." 44] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45] All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Once saved, the believer hopefully will be motivated to pursue spiritual growth. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. If he does learn and apply bible doctrine by which means spiritual growth occurs then his capacity to love will increase.
And this statement is in fact the cheap grace defined by Bonhoffer. When someone claims Christ but denies the cost of discipleship---well, that's not the Jesus I met.
When someone lays hold of the promises while hanging on to carnality---that's not the Jesus I met.
It's the same claim of "carnal" Christians about being born again while having the DNA of the devil coursing through their spiritual being.
Either one is born again in Christ and becomes a new creature, with new desires, new purposes, new spiritual insight, or he/she never died to their sin and remains separated from the fullness of God.
If we are really the children of God, He will over and over find ways to test the depth of our faith and commitment. If you find someone who was once a Christian but has now backslidden into a life that Satan would approve of, you can be sure that person was never "born again."
The cost of discipleship is not denied. But picking up your cross and following Jesus is an issue pertaining to the believer's spiritual life after having been saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Receiving the free gift of eternal life by simply believing in Christ comes first, and then hopefully the believer will pursue spiritual growth.
The believer can never lose his salvation no matter how much he backslides. He is eternally secure.
The cost of discipleship is not denied. But picking up your cross and following Jesus is an issue pertaining to the believer's spiritual life after having been saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Receiving the free gift of eternal life by simply believing in Christ comes first, and then hopefully the believer will pursue spiritual growth.
The believer can never lose his salvation no matter how much he backslides. He is eternally secure.
So what you really believe in is a mixture of the faithfulness of Christ in being eternally secure and your own faith to make you eternally secure. The truth is when you realize and understand the faithfulness of Christ, you quit playing church and christianity and root and establish yourself in him, all else is just a product of that.
So what you really believe in is a mixture of the faithfulness of Christ in being eternally secure and your own faith to make you eternally secure. The truth is when you realize and understand the faithfulness of Christ, you quit playing church and christianity and root and establish yourself in him, all else is just a product of that.
Don't make assumptions about what I believe.
Once a person has received Christ as Savior he has entered into an eternal relationship with God. It is the integrity and power of God by which the believer is eternally secure.
Once a person has received Christ as Savior he has entered into an eternal relationship with God. It is the integrity and power of God by which the believer is eternally secure.
Well how is the backslider eternally secured if he is backslidden, which can mean nothing other than being IN unbelief?, the only thing which could possibly keep him being what your refer as eternally secure, is the faithfulness of Christ. I know you cannot accept it but it begins and ends with the faithfulness of Christ. God does not apprehend you then watch you take a downward spiral. He finishes that which he starts.
There is no security in unbelief, a double minded man is unstable in all is ways.
Well how is the backslider eternally secured if he is backslidden, which can mean nothing other than being IN unbelief?, the only thing which could possibly keep him being what your refer as eternally secure, is the faithfulness of Christ. I know you cannot accept it but it begins and ends with the faithfulness of Christ. God does not apprehend you then watch you take a downward spiral. He finishes that which he starts.
There is no security in unbelief, a double minded man is unstable in all is ways.
You clearly believe what you think i am assuming.
Again, do not make assumptions about what I believe.
Once having been born into the family of God through faith alone in Christ alone, the believer is sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit and is identified with Christ in His death by means of the baptism of the Holy Spirit by which it is promised that having died with Christ he WILL live with Him (Rom. 6:3-8; 2 Tim. 2:11). No matter how faithless the believer becomes, he is eternally secure.
2 Tim. 2:11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
The word 'if' is in the 1st class condition. The first class condition is formed when 'ei' - if, is with the main verb in the indicative mood. The first class condition assumes it to be true. In other words, what 2 Timothy 2:11 says is 'if, and we have died with Him (Christ), we WILL also live with Him.' That is a promise which God will keep.
2 Tim. 2:12 then goes on to speak of the fact that believers who endure (in their spiritual life) will rule with Him. On the other hand, believers who deny Christ, having become faithless will be denied rulership responsibilities in the kingdom, but not eternal life which the believer is promised in verse 11.
2 Tim. 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us
2 Tim. 2:13 then states that if the believer is faithless (and no believer is perfectly faithful), Jesus remains faithful because He cannot deny Himself.
2 Tim. 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
Every believer has been identified with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection and will therefore live with Christ no matter how faithless he becomes in his spiritual life after salvation.
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