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The gift are children, otherwise in 120 years nobody would be around.
very true IMHO.
FWIW, my guess is that the pope was NOT accusing ALL childless couples of being "selfish" but more likely just those who could have children and likely have all reasonable means to take care of children to normal standards but decide for MATERIAL reasons ("I want a nice house and having children would make that difficult to afford" "I want to be able to afford a great vacation on a regular basis", "kids wouldn't fit in my nice new convertible" and similar things)--- that may well boil down to: "I want all my stuff and I don't want to compromise my wants for somebody else's".
OTOH, those who have medical problems, are crushed in poverty, hunger, and war, and probably other good reasons are not "selfish" but instead are in some ways trapped by circumstance often beyond their control that make having a family not just difficult but perhaps dangerous for them and any potential kids----no selfishness there and thus no moral/ethical problems for the pope to condemn. don't think the pope is foolish enough are so completely lacking in either charity or human understanding to make a blanket condemnation of anybody or everybody all the time in such situations.
again, how does the pope having (or not having) children have anything to do with the discussion? people who have mental illness routinely accept the care and take the professional advice of someone who likely never had their conditions themselves and hardly anybody complains that such a doctor doesn't understand them or their situation and therefore is completely unable to help them.
if urging/recommending (NOT ordering) people who are otherwise able to have families/children safely to at least be open to doing so is really imposing a burden, is "enforced" celibacy and continence for unmarried people (including clergy) not also a burden? IOW, nobody single or not is "getting away" with something---instead, each group has potentially separate but equal vocations, responsibilities, opportunities, joys, and sorrows and yes, sometimes "crosses" to bear (which as I recall, Jesus himself urged Christians to do every once in a while).
Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 02-17-2015 at 09:07 AM..
Reason: more info.
again, how does the pope having (or not having) children have anything to do with the discussion? people who have mental illness routinely accept the care and take the professional advice of someone who likely never had their conditions themselves and hardly anybody complains that such a doctor doesn't understand them or their situation and therefore is completely unable to help them.
if urging/recommending (NOT ordering) people who are otherwise able to have families/children safely to at least be open to doing so is really imposing a burden, is "enforced" celibacy and continence for unmarried people (including clergy) not also a burden? IOW, nobody single or not is "getting away" with something---instead, each group has potentially separate but equal vocations, responsibilities, opportunities, joys, and sorrows and yes, sometimes "crosses" to bear (which as I recall, Jesus himself urged Christians to do every once in a while).
I think the church should get out of women's wombs. 50 years ago when I was in church, the birth control pill was new. Any woman who even considered using the birth control pill was going to hell in a hand basket. If her husband "let" her use the pill, he was going to hell in a hand basket, too. God was going to strike us dead and our little dog, too.
If one is a devout Catholic, there is no such thing as a "suggestion" from the Pope. The women without children are going to feel guilt and they are going to feel like they have done something wrong. Just like the women who used the pill 50 years ago felt.
If the Pope is so gung-ho for children, he shouldn't have "chosen" a profession that precluded having children. He made his choice. Women should be able to make their own choices, too.
If the church had its way, we'd all be the Duggers with 19 kids and counting. With 1 million plus women in this country, can you imagine what that would be like? Most people are struggling to raise the 1 or 2 kids they've got. The Catholic church needs as many children as it can get. They grow up to be good Catholics and will put their money in the collection plate. The world does not need more children.
My mother worked for the welfare department for 25 years. There are a lot of people out there who should *never* have had children. Popping a kid out doesn't make one a good parent. The news is filled with stories of "kids and kids-now-adults gone bad". The Pope should be more concerned with the quality of life children are having.
again, how does the pope having (or not having) children have anything to do with the discussion? people who have mental illness routinely accept the care and take the professional advice of someone who likely never had their conditions themselves and hardly anybody complains that such a doctor doesn't understand them or their situation and therefore is completely unable to help them.
if urging/recommending (NOT ordering) people who are otherwise able to have families/children safely to at least be open to doing so is really imposing a burden, is "enforced" celibacy and continence for unmarried people (including clergy) not also a burden? IOW, nobody single or not is "getting away" with something---instead, each group has potentially separate but equal vocations, responsibilities, opportunities, joys, and sorrows and yes, sometimes "crosses" to bear (which as I recall, Jesus himself urged Christians to do every once in a while).
But he did not merely suggest that those that are able to have children "at least be open to doing so." He said that those that do not are selfish and greedy. These perjoratives, when spoken by the Pope, are effectively commands to Catholics.
Cnynrat, do you have the whole statement to base your comments on or only the soundbite which may or may not be out of context)?
Ella Parr---you don't want the pope and the church in your bedroom, you probably don't want either in the school room--do you want any kind of religious (catholic or otherwise) voice or presence ANYWHERE in public? should believers of any sort just go to church and shut up about anything at all that might be regarded as controversial and should any religious organization strictly limit itself to being just another charitable institution running soup kitchens and homeless shelters (excellent things in themselves, absolutely) and not say anything to anybody about why they are doing so and why anyone should care in the first place? for that matter, should any religious institution (or secular for that matter) have the right to tell, admonish, suggest to at least its MEMBERS what is acceptable belief and behavior for those who want to be "all in"???
would guess that if you don't like the Church and what it says, you would probably eventually have serious disagreement with some of those passages in the Bible that seem to have some kind of connection with everybody's bedroom in some degree---those pesky lines about "crucifying" and "subduing" the "flesh" or "making no provision for the flesh"---NOT because our natural needs (sexual or otherwise) are inherently bad but because if we are not careful we end up worrying about them and the pleasures involved with them more than seeking the Kingdom of God ("just like the pagans do"). sad for all of us and our wants, the bible is pretty old fashioned and hard core about doing and NOT doing all sorts of things we're fond of in a variety of situations and along with "love your neighbor" there are the other commands for every Christian like to "repent", "deny yourself", "sin no more"---the woman taken in adultery in this case a bedroom problem of some sort I would think, "be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect", and "take up your cross (generally not a pleasant thing supposedly) and follow...." daunting and scary thoughts for all of us (yours truly included!!!)
you don't have to like or listen to the church and obviously you are free (thank heavens) to complain about it and reject it's teaching and practice all or in part. however and to repeat if you don't think the church is right on this or any other subject you probably won't be happy with a lot of the "source documents" (contained in the bible ) that the Christian church (in most all it's varieties) seems to lug around with it---it's hard to reject one without having to do the same in some significant matter at some point with the other.
finally think we would both agree that "we all gotta do what we all gotta do"--your way, my way, the church's way, God's way (whatever that is and however that may intersect with all the other "ways")---hopefully, you and I and everybody else will both find the truth and live that truth---even if it does sometimes mean we might not always get to do what we'd really like to do all the time.
Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 02-17-2015 at 03:15 PM..
Reason: more info.
Cnynrat, do you have the whole statement to base your comments on or only the soundbite which may or may not be out of context)?
I found this quote in the article that was linked in the OP:
"A society with a greedy generation, that doesn't want to surround itself with children, that considers them above all worrisome, a weight, a risk, is a depressed society," the pope said. "The choice to not have children is selfish. Life rejuvenates and acquires energy when it multiplies: It is enriched, not impoverished."
It may be missing some context, but I don't think any amount of context is going to alter the message to the extent that I'd conclude he isn't saying that couples that don't have children are selfish. So I maintain that it's a much stronger comment than a suggestion to "keep your mind open" to the idea of having children.
Dave
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