A question for those who believe in eternal torment (paradise, Gospel, hell)

[Zero 7]

I think the majority of those who believe in ET believe God loves even those are lost but due to either them not figuring it out or not being chosen (whichever you believe), they end up in hell.

So assuming you know this, that God loves them, can I take it a step further and assume you believe God loves them even more than a human can love, say even more than a parent and his/her child?

The question is, wouldn't this break God's heart, each time He had to sentence someone to eternal torment? Imagine the heartbreak of losing a child now multiply this by billions upon billions of times. Why would He subject Himself to this or does He get over it? Why go through with this? If you say He is limited by our free choice, then God is not all powerful.

I guess I need to ask because when I was a fundamentalist, I couldn't answer the question myself so I came to the (false)conclusion that maybe those who are lost are not really sons of God, but born of the devil. Maybe I thought, all these souls destined for hell, were children of the devil. If this is what some believe, which I think may be the case here, does God love them as well and are we suppose to love them?

[georgeinbandonoregon]

some believe that the "torment" of hell is ultimately separation from God and that those who are in hell have freely chosen at some point and in some way to remain separate from God and literally "do their own thing" (think the devil in the poem "paradise lost"---"better to reign in hell than serve in heaven"). perhaps any suffering any separation from God either here or hereafter comes from our rejection of God through sin and selfishness than God's rejection of us.

think no one here can really know for sure what happens or doesn't happen IN ETERNITY for anyone---except God and ultimately we are all at a loss to fully describe, understand, or comprehend "Him" ("....for my thoughts area not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways..."----except that "God IS love "---but how His love is employed and how we individually ultimately respond of do not respond to it in this world and the next is great mystery both humbling and hopeful.

OTOH, most Christians believe that God is always reaching out to those who are separated from Him by sin---like the "good shepherd" constantly searching for the lost sheep, He is always ready to find us and bring us to where He is now and forever ---IF we want to be found and be with Him.

God bless you.

[Vizio]

Originally Posted by Zero 7

I think the majority of those who believe in ET believe God loves even those are lost but due to either them not figuring it out or not being chosen (whichever you believe), they end up in hell.

Why would you assume that God loves everyone? The Bible specifically states that he hates sinners. If you're going to make a statement like that, you need to deal with these verses:

Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"

Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."

Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."

Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."

Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."

[zthatzmanz28]

So assuming you know this, that God loves them, can I take it a step further and assume you believe God loves them even more than a human can love, say even more than a parent and his/her child?

Some say yes.

The question is, wouldn't this break God's heart, each time He had to sentence someone to eternal torment?

Many agree..

Imagine the heartbreak of losing a child now multiply this by billions upon billions of times. Why would He subject Himself to this or does He get over it?

Time heals all wounds?

Why go through with this?

Couldn't God just create a few more angels to do his absolute bidding and never have to wonder about loyalty?
Isn't it better to give creation a choice and when they do chose God, it is infinnately better?

If you say He is limited by our free choice, then God is not all powerful.

How does free will limit God?

I guess I need to ask because when I was a fundamentalist, I couldn't answer the question myself so I came to the (false)conclusion that maybe those who are lost are not really sons of God, but born of the devil. SEE ABOVE POST FOR EVIDENCE OF HOW TO HATE AND FEAR YOUR NEIGHBOR. Maybe I thought, all these souls destined for hell, were children of the devil. If this is what some believe, which I think may be the case here, does God love them as well and are we suppose to love them?

A very common misconception around here as well..


LOVE YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, SOUL, MIND and STRENGTH--And LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR.

[zthatzmanz28]

Originally Posted by Vizio

Why would you assume that God loves everyone? The Bible specifically states that he hates sinners. If you're going to make a statement like that, you need to deal with these verses:

Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"

Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."

Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."

Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."

Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."

Suppose someone has to be the exception to the LOVE..


But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

[expatCA]

Originally Posted by Zero 7

I guess I need to ask because when I was a fundamentalist, I couldn't answer the question myself so I came to the (false)conclusion that maybe those who are lost are not really sons of God, but born of the devil. Maybe I thought, all these souls destined for hell, were children of the devil. If this is what some believe, which I think may be the case here, does God love them as well and are we suppose to love them?

KJG John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the (1 )beginning, and (2 )abode not in the (3 truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his (4 )own: for he is a liar, and the (5 )father of it.

Yep they chose Satan rather than God as their father, thus becoming the Devils children and not God's. God's lets us make this chocie in love as He forces no one as such would be unloving. He does not want robots, rather those who come to love Him not this world.

[Zero 7]

Originally Posted by expatCA

KJG John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the (1 )beginning, and (2 )abode not in the (3 truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his (4 )own: for he is a liar, and the (5 )father of it.

Yep they chose Satan rather than God as their father, thus becoming the Devils children and not God's. God's lets us make this chocie in love as He forces no one as such would be unloving. He does not want robots, rather those who come to love Him not this world.

Does God still love them though?

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by Zero 7

I think the majority of those who believe in ET believe God loves even those are lost but due to either them not figuring it out or not being chosen (whichever you believe), they end up in hell.

So assuming you know this, that God loves them, can I take it a step further and assume you believe God loves them even more than a human can love, say even more than a parent and his/her child?

John 3:16 tells us that God loved the world (with reference to unbelievers - the lost, not with reference to the world as in Satan's cosmic system) so much that He gave His unique Son so that whoever believes on Him will not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

And Romans 5:6-8 tells us;

Rom. 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7] For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8] But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

And so there is no question as to whether or not God loves the lost. He does.

The question is, wouldn't this break God's heart, each time He had to sentence someone to eternal torment? Imagine the heartbreak of losing a child now multiply this by billions upon billions of times. Why would He subject Himself to this or does He get over it? Why go through with this? If you say He is limited by our free choice, then God is not all powerful.

I guess I need to ask because when I was a fundamentalist, I couldn't answer the question myself so I came to the (false)conclusion that maybe those who are lost are not really sons of God, but born of the devil. Maybe I thought, all these souls destined for hell, were children of the devil. If this is what some believe, which I think may be the case here, does God love them as well and are we suppose to love them?

God doesn't want anyone to perish, but for all to be saved as stated.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

1 Peter 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

But there is more to God than love. He is also infinitely holy. He is perfect and absolute righteousness and justice. And because of that, just as He HAD to condemn Adam the moment he sinned, He also HAS to leave in condemnation all who do not avail themselves of the means of salvation that He has provided. God wants everyone to be saved, but He cannot compromise His perfect righteousness in order to save anyone. Salvation can only be provided in a manner which satisfies God's perfect integrity.

Since sin is an offense against the absolute righteousness of God, it has infinite consequences. Adam's original sin resulted not only in Adam's condemnation, but in the condemnation of the entire human race which was seminally in Adam and of which Adam was the federal head. When Adam sinned God viewed the entire human race as having sinned in Adam. God's love for Adam did not and could not prevent Him from having to condemn Adam. But God's love motivated Him to provide a means of salvation which would not compromise His perfect character in any way. In fact, God knew in eternity past that Adam would sin and therefore came up with the plan of salvation even before the creation of the world. That plan involve the substitutionary death of Christ on the cross in which He paid the penalty for our sins in our place. We could never pay the price ourselves, but Jesus, being without sin was qualified to go to the cross on our behalf.

Since Jesus is God, His death (spiritual death) as a perfect man (as God He could not die, but as a man He did) was of infinite value and therefore He paid the penalty for our sins in the three hours from 12 noon to 3 PM in which our sins were poured out on Him and judged (2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Pet. 2:24). He was on the cross longer than that, but it was at 12 noon when God brought a supernatural darkness on the land and began to judge Christ (Matt. 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44). When Jesus' redemptive work on the cross was complete He said, ''It is finished.'' (John 19:30). He then dismissed His spirit from His body and died physically.

Jesus died for the sins of the world. He died for every sin that would ever be committed in the human race. He died for the sins of those who will spend the eternal future in the lake of fire. The fact that Jesus died for the sins of the world does not automatically provide salvation. God requires a volitional response from a person with regard to the fact that Christ died for his sins. Despite having our sins paid for, that still leaves the issue of man not having a righteousness which is acceptable to God. That issue is resolved when at the moment a person personally trusts in Christ's finished redemptive work on the Cross He imputes or credits to the account of that person Christ's own perfect righteousness (Romans chapters 3-5).

Now, you might ask, what about those who have never heard of Christ, who have never heard the gospel? There comes a point in every person's life, aside from the very young and those with insufficient mental capacity, when they wonder if there must be some kind of supreme being who is responsible for creation. God has made Himself known through His creation (Romans 1:18-20). If a person dies before reaching that point, then based on the fact that Christ died for their sins, and because of God's character, it is reasonable to assume that they are automatically saved. But when a person does reach (God consciousness) they become volitionally responsible and if at that point they have negative volition then they may never hear the gospel. But if they have positive volition then God will insure that regardless of geographical isolation they will have the opportunity to hear the gospel and either accept it or reject it. Being positive at the point of 'God consciousness' does not necessarily mean that a person will be positive toward the gospel message concerning Jesus Christ.

Now, does it break God's heart having to leave in condemnation those who reject the means of salvation that He provided? Well, again, it's not something He desires, but on the other hand, God loves justice (Psalm 37:28). God cannot compromise any facet of His perfect character. If the means of salvation that God has provided is rejected then His perfect justice must come into play in condemnation. Only God Himself knows how, or to what extent, it 'bothers' Him about having to condemn anyone to the lake of fire.

The lost are not sons of God. The Bible tells us that while we are all God’s creation (Colossians 1:16), and that while God loves the world (John 3:16; Rom. 5:6-8), only those who are born again are children of God (John 1:12; 11:52; Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1-10).

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by Vizio

Why would you assume that God loves everyone? The Bible specifically states that he hates sinners. If you're going to make a statement like that, you need to deal with these verses:

Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"

Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."

Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."

Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."

Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."

That is interesting that God hates sinners but must have hated them so much He sent His only begotten Son into the world to save sinners.

I like that kind of hate. Makes me want to hate my neighbor so I can do things to help him.

[Torpedos]

I just can figure out what purpose will burning people serve? There is no end purpose. Just torment for eternity. That's cute.