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Thank you Mike555 for the amount of time you put into the writing of this.
You're welcome. I believe post #182 is my clearest post on this thread concerning why it is impossible for Isaiah 53 to be referring to Israel. Or to any individual who lived before Isaiah wrote the passage for that matter. Despite the claims made by some who deny the Messianic context of Isaiah 53 by arguing that past tense is used in the passage, no one prior to the writing of Isaiah 53 fulfilled, or could have fulfilled what Isaiah 53 states.
Hebrew scholars recognize that Biblical Hebrew often regards a future event as having already happened in order to emphasize the certainty that it will happen in the future. The following website provides a number of such Old Testament verses in which a future event is portrayed as having already happened.
While most English translations translate these verses using the future tense, in the Hebrew the verses speak of future events as though they have already occurred. Young’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible (YLT) is an exception to this and properly translates the verses as they read in the Hebrew.
Genesis 6:18 "But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall enter the ark -- you and your sons and your wife, and your sons' wives with you. [NASB]
Genesis 6:18 'And I have established My covenant with thee, and thou hast come in unto the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy son's wives with thee; [YLT]
Although the ark hadn't yet been built, the Hebrew reading, which the YLT properly translates is that Noah and his family had already entered the ark. This is to express the certainty that they would enter the ark although they hadn't yet done so.
2.) Genesis 15:18
Gen. 15:18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land, From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates: [NASB]
Gen. 15:18 In that day hath Jehovah made with Abram a covenant, saying, 'To thy seed I have given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Phrat, [YLT]
Most English translations literally translate Genesis 15:18 as it is in the Hebrew. That is, God is portrayed as having already given the land to Abraham's descendants even though the Hebrew people didn't exist yet. Genesis 15:18 expresses a future occurrence as though it had already happened.
3.) Genesis 41:30
Gen. 41:30 and after them seven years of famine will come, and all the abundance will be forgotten in the land of Egypt, and the famine will ravage the land. [NASB]
Gen. 41:30 and seven years of famine have arisen after them, and all the plenty is forgotten in the land of Egypt, and the famine hath finished the land, [YLT]
In Genesis 41:30 a famine which has not yet occurred is presented in the Hebrew, and which the YLT literally translates, as already having occurred.
4.) Isaiah 9:6
Isa. 9:6For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7]Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this.[NASB]
Isa. 9:6For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace. 7]To the increase of the princely power, And of peace, there is no end, On the throne of David, and on his kingdom, To establish it, and to support it, In judgment and in righteousness, Henceforth, even unto the age, The zeal of Jehovah of Hosts doth this. [YLT]
Isaiah 9:6 [Notice that this is Isaiah] is a Messianic prophecy about whom it cannot be said that it has ever been historically fulfilled. Of no man can it be said that historically any man who has set upon the throne of David, ''of his government there shall be no end.'' This is a future event which is so certain to occur that it is spoken of in the Hebrew as having already happened. YLT literally translates the Hebrew while most other English translations translate Isa. 96 in the future tense. It IS a future event, but the Hebrew portrays the certainty of it by writing it as though it has already happened.
And so it is with Isaiah 53. The future fulfillment of this Messianic prophecy was so real, so certain in Isaiah's mind that he wrote of it as having already happened.
For anyone who has not read post #182, it is proof that the servant in Isaiah 53 is not Israel and that it is impossible for it to be Israel.
And as has already been stated more than once, Jesus said Isaiah 53 was to be fulfilled in Himself. As well, the apostle Philip said that Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus. And if you believe Jesus, then that really is all the proof you need, even though I provided more proof in post #182 as well as in this post in which it has been shown that there are many instances in the Hebrew Bible where a future occurrence is presented as though it has already occurred.
Last edited by Michael Way; 07-17-2017 at 03:27 PM..
And as has already been stated more than once, Jesus said Isaiah 53 was to be fulfilled in Himself. As well, the apostle Philip said that Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus. And if you believe Jesus, then that really is all the proof you need, even though I provided more proof in post #182 as well as in this post in which it has been shown that there are many instances in the Hebrew Bible where a future occurrence is presented as though it has already occurred.
RESPONSE:Please cite the scripture in which Jesus said Isiah 53 was to be fulfilled in Himself. Or is this another of your interpretations of scripture.
It’s always interesting to observe someone trying to avoid the plain meaning of words. Perhaps you will reinterpret the following paragraphs for us.
In Isaiah 53:10…the servant is promised long life and seed.
Let’s explore this introductory passage to Isaiah’s fourth and final Servant Song:
And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see seed, He shall prolong his days, and God’s purpose shall prosper in his hand.(Isaiah 53:10)
For the Church, this verse presents numerous staggering problems. To begin with, Jesus did not have any biological children. The Hebrew word זָ֫רַע (zerah), which appears in Isaiah 53:10 – it is the blessing bestowed on the servant – means “seed.” This Hebrew word can only refer to biological offspring when used in connection with a person’s children, never metaphoric children, such as disciples. The Hebrew word that can refer to metaphoric children is בֵּן (ben). Moreover, according to Church teachings, Jesus died when he was approximately 30 years old, less than half the expected life span of an ordinary man (Psalm 90:10). Obviously, both the blessing of a home filled with children and long life were not fulfilled in Jesus’ lifetime.
Missionaries respond to this glaring problem by explaining that Jesus had long life in his resurrection, where he lives forever. Therefore, they argue, Jesus indeed lived a very, very long life. This response, however, does little to relieve their problem. To begin with, the Hebrew words in this verse יַאֲרִיךְ יָמִים (ya’arich yamim), meaning “long life” or a “prolonged life,” do not mean or refer to an eternal life which has no end, but rather a lengthening of days which eventually come to an end. These Hebrew words are therefore never applied in the Jewish Scriptures to anyone who is to live forever. In Tanach, therefore, God is never said to have long life. In fact, the words ya’arich yamim appear in a number of places throughout Jewish Scriptures, including Deuteronomy 17:20, Deuteronomy 25:15, Proverbs 28:16, and Ecclesiastes 8:13. In each and every verse where this phrase appears, these words refer to an extended mortal life, not an eternal one. When the Jewish Scriptures speak of an eternal resurrected life, as in Daniel 12:2, the Hebrew words לְחַיֵּי עֹולָם (l’chayai olam) are used.
RESPONSE:Please cite the scripture in which Jesus said Isiah 53 was to be fulfilled in Himself. Or is this another of your interpretations of scripture.
It’s always interesting to observe someone trying to avoid the plain meaning of words. Perhaps you will reinterpret the following paragraphs for us.
In Isaiah 53:10…the servant is promised long life and seed.
Let’s explore this introductory passage to Isaiah’s fourth and final Servant Song:
And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see seed, He shall prolong his days, and God’s purpose shall prosper in his hand.(Isaiah 53:10)
For the Church, this verse presents numerous staggering problems. To begin with, Jesus did not have any biological children. The Hebrew word זָ֫רַע (zerah), which appears in Isaiah 53:10 – it is the blessing bestowed on the servant – means “seed.” This Hebrew word can only refer to biological offspring when used in connection with a person’s children, never metaphoric children, such as disciples. The Hebrew word that can refer to metaphoric children is בֵּן (ben). Moreover, according to Church teachings, Jesus died when he was approximately 30 years old, less than half the expected life span of an ordinary man (Psalm 90:10). Obviously, both the blessing of a home filled with children and long life were not fulfilled in Jesus’ lifetime.
Missionaries respond to this glaring problem by explaining that Jesus had long life in his resurrection, where he lives forever. Therefore, they argue, Jesus indeed lived a very, very long life. This response, however, does little to relieve their problem. To begin with, the Hebrew words in this verse יַאֲרִיךְ יָמִים (ya’arich yamim), meaning “long life” or a “prolonged life,” do not mean or refer to an eternal life which has no end, but rather a lengthening of days which eventually come to an end. These Hebrew words are therefore never applied in the Jewish Scriptures to anyone who is to live forever. In Tanach, therefore, God is never said to have long life. In fact, the words ya’arich yamim appear in a number of places throughout Jewish Scriptures, including Deuteronomy 17:20, Deuteronomy 25:15, Proverbs 28:16, and Ecclesiastes 8:13. In each and every verse where this phrase appears, these words refer to an extended mortal life, not an eternal one. When the Jewish Scriptures speak of an eternal resurrected life, as in Daniel 12:2, the Hebrew words לְחַיֵּי עֹולָם (l’chayai olam) are used.
You're welcome. I believe post #182 is my clearest post on this thread concerning why it is impossible for Isaiah 53 to be referring to Israel. Or to any individual who lived before Isaiah wrote the passage for that matter. Despite the claims made by some who deny the Messianic context of Isaiah 53 by arguing that past tense is used in the passage, no one prior to the writing of Isaiah 53 fulfilled, or could have fulfilled what Isaiah 53 states.
Hebrew scholars recognize that Biblical Hebrew often regards a future event as having already happened in order to emphasize the certainty that it will happen in the future. The following website provides a number of such Old Testament verses in which a future event is portrayed as having already happened.
While most English translations translate these verses using the future tense, in the Hebrew the verses speak of future events as though they have already occurred. Young’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible (YLT) is an exception to this and properly translates the verses as they read in the Hebrew.
Genesis 6:18 "But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall enter the ark -- you and your sons and your wife, and your sons' wives with you. [NASB]
Genesis 6:18 'And I have established My covenant with thee, and thou hast come in unto the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy son's wives with thee; [YLT]
Although the ark hadn't yet been built, the Hebrew reading, which the YLT properly translates is that Noah and his family had already entered the ark. This is to express the certainty that they would enter the ark although they hadn't yet done so.
2.) Genesis 15:18
Gen. 15:18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land, From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates: [NASB]
Gen. 15:18 In that day hath Jehovah made with Abram a covenant, saying, 'To thy seed I have given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Phrat, [YLT]
Most English translations literally translate Genesis 15:18 as it is in the Hebrew. That is, God is portrayed as having already given the land to Abraham's descendants even though the Hebrew people didn't exist yet. Genesis 15:18 expresses a future occurrence as though it had already happened.
3.) Genesis 41:30
Gen. 41:30 and after them seven years of famine will come, and all the abundance will be forgotten in the land of Egypt, and the famine will ravage the land. [NASB]
Gen. 41:30 and seven years of famine have arisen after them, and all the plenty is forgotten in the land of Egypt, and the famine hath finished the land, [YLT]
In Genesis 41:30 a famine which has not yet occurred is presented in the Hebrew, and which the YLT literally translates, as already having occurred.
4.) Isaiah 9:6
Isa. 9:6For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7]Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this.[NASB]
Isa. 9:6For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace. 7]To the increase of the princely power, And of peace, there is no end, On the throne of David, and on his kingdom, To establish it, and to support it, In judgment and in righteousness, Henceforth, even unto the age, The zeal of Jehovah of Hosts doth this. [YLT]
Isaiah 9:6 [Notice that this is Isaiah] is a Messianic prophecy about whom it cannot be said that it has ever been historically fulfilled. Of no man can it be said that historically any man who has set upon the throne of David, ''of his government there shall be no end.'' This is a future event which is so certain to occur that it is spoken of in the Hebrew as having already happened. YLT literally translates the Hebrew while most other English translations translate Isa. 96 in the future tense. It IS a future event, but the Hebrew portrays the certainty of it by writing it as though it has already happened.
And so it is with Isaiah 53. The future fulfillment of this Messianic prophecy was so real, so certain in Isaiah's mind that he wrote of it as having already happened.
For anyone who has not read post #182, it is proof that the servant in Isaiah 53 is not Israel and that it is impossible for it to be Israel.
And as has already been stated more than once, Jesus said Isaiah 53 was to be fulfilled in Himself. As well, the apostle Philip said that Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus. And if you believe Jesus, then that really is all the proof you need, even though I provided more proof in post #182 as well as in this post in which it has been shown that there are many instances in the Hebrew Bible where a future occurrence is presented as though it has already occurred.
18 On that day, the Lord formed a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your seed I have given this land, from the river of Egypt until the great river, the Euphrates river
No you keep adding all kinds of other junk on top of the subject at hand to throw everything off is all.
Quote:
Everyone is speaking of a religion called Judaism. Jesus came walking in Judaism teaching the secrets of Torah, and we offer this Jesus as a Passover lamb, as a Sukkot bull, and every important day of his life was set in stone to take place.
You are the one who brought Judaism into the subject that Mike555 began
We aren't under that Mosaic law you have packed in your bags for shifting
The shape of what Christ accomplished he has nothing to do with your ink
Mr. Dominate just has to have the last word in every subject he ever sank
The Christ was born to Earth to break the original curse Adam had started
Things inside the Bible versions given as complete but it's obvious redacted
That if Yeshua threw over the money changers tables because he elevated
Animals back to their high status they once had in the Garden not as hated
Why don't you go look at what your wrote about yourself having the caged
Animals which you like to eat as was not that a thread you had also started
Such shock value making terror of animals you have locked up are terrorized
But to you that must be a past-time well come on let's talk about what dead
To be honest, this is the first post I've seen you make that I can get a grasp on what you're trying to say, as it's nearly impossible to figure out just WHAT you believe with your wildly disjointed writing style. That aside....
And I take from it, you think Adam started a curse on animals? You're missing the whole point. Adam was the first high priest of G-d, he knew what the Torah said before it was ever given to Moses to be written down (because in the beginning was the Word/Torah), which is WHY his sons knew to do sacrifices, and why G-d accepted one of them as valid and the other, not. And guess which one was acceptable? And why?
Because it says in the Torah, that the life is in the blood, so only a blood sacrifice (read living here) was acceptable. In the NT we read that without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sins. Cain's sacrifice was of the ground which speaks of the works of the flesh (Adam came from the dust of the earth), Abel's was from the living flock, and pointed to the sacrifice of the Lamb to come, AND to the sacrifice of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, a work of the Spirit of G-d, which Adam would have told his sons about.
When it says Adam walked with G-d in the cool of the day, cool there runs into a Hebrew word meaning, "breath", and G-d's breath is Spirit as He is Spirit, and His Spirit has wisdom and knowledge which means Adam was walking with G-d in the Spirit being instructed in all things. Which is why, after 7 generations, an Enoch was produced, as each generation succeeded a little more in walking in the things of G-d as He commanded. And Enoch was to show a type, as well.
And spiritually speaking, the animals, which all had names (means nature) given them by Adam, represented the things of carnally minded man that must be put to death through the Spirit of Christ. Like it or not, G-d basically has put on a grand scale "show and tell" for mankind, in the blessed hope that NONE will miss the message, one way or another. Peace
Things inside the Bible versions given as complete but it's obvious redacted
That if Yeshua threw over the money changers tables because he elevated
Animals back to their high status they once had in the Garden not as hated
Why don't you go look at what your wrote about yourself having the caged
Animals which you like to eat as was not that a thread you had also started
Such shock value making terror of animals you have locked up are terrorized
But to you that must be a past-time well come on let's talk about what dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1
To be honest, this is the first post I've seen you make that I can get a grasp on what you're trying to say, as it's nearly impossible to figure out just WHAT you believe with your wildly disjointed writing style. That aside....
And I take from it, you think Adam started a curse on animals? You're missing the whole point. Adam was the first high priest of G-d, he knew what the Torah said before it was ever given to Moses to be written down (because in the beginning was the Word/Torah), which is WHY his sons knew to do sacrifices, and why G-d accepted one of them as valid and the other, not. And guess which one was acceptable? And why?
Disjointed? Would that be the whole cause of which has become what is called most of mankind?
The rest of what you wrote will be left below under this post because it shows you do not understand God's breath of life is in the blood.
God's life is in the blood but for some reason an angry disjointed God must demand that a little lamb have its throat cut so that some sap can say that he transgressed.
Makes a lot of sense doesn't it to take animals intended to be friends to man, to lay hold of them as devils would and without mercy kill them because someone made up a story that it was God who required.
Well that might be Baphomet, certainly not a Living God would ever require such sacrilege and death trampling his courts of justice, mercy, love, meekness, just those who believe that death must become another's bed.
Do you mean you cannot approach him with repentance for what you state is blind, that you think God who created those same animals who are part of his church would require death as being part of Eden, that you are to be dreaded.
What sort of pagan disjointed religion takes Genesis 1, throws it down off the altar, places man at the forefront of all as a monster who cages animals, slaughters them blind, death being what this constitutes, how is peace and joy in the Kingdom of God?
It never was, neither can it ever be, that how the LORD is a good shepherd, not a liar, a thief disconnected.
Plainly speaking, the sacrifice Abel gave was that he never killed the animal but fire was what he sacrificed.
Does that take away from those same traditions that have taken the earth away from what God first stated.
Cain's sacrifice was a selfish one in that he took from the Earth from what's considered to be sacred ground.
Genesis chapter 1 to be fruitful multiply that everything that has the breath of life makes green plants food.
ISAIAH 66:3~ "HE WHO SLAUGHTERS AN OX IS LIKE HIM WHO KILLS A MAN; HE WHO SACRIFICES A LAMB, LIKE HIM WHO BREAKS A DOG'S NECK;..."
Quote:
Because it says in the Torah, that the life is in the blood, so only a blood sacrifice (read living here) was acceptable. In the NT we read that without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sins. Cain's sacrifice was of the ground which speaks of the works of the flesh (Adam came from the dust of the earth), Abel's was from the living flock, and pointed to the sacrifice of the Lamb to come, AND to the sacrifice of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, a work of the Spirit of G-d, which Adam would have told his sons about.
When it says Adam walked with G-d in the cool of the day, cool there runs into a Hebrew word meaning, "breath", and G-d's breath is Spirit as He is Spirit, and His Spirit has wisdom and knowledge which means Adam was walking with G-d in the Spirit being instructed in all things. Which is why, after 7 generations, an Enoch was produced, as each generation succeeded a little more in walking in the things of G-d as He commanded. And Enoch was to show a type, as well.
And spiritually speaking, the animals, which all had names (means nature) given them by Adam, represented the things of carnally minded man that must be put to death through the Spirit of Christ. Like it or not, G-d basically has put on a grand scale "show and tell" for mankind, in the blessed hope that NONE will miss the message, one way or another. Peace
Disjointed? Would that be the whole cause of which has become what is called most of mankind?
The rest of what you wrote will be left below under this post because it shows you do not understand God's breath of life is in the blood.
God's life is in the blood but for some reason an angry disjointed God must demand that a little lamb have its throat cut so that some sap can say that he transgressed.
Makes a lot of sense doesn't it to take animals intended to be friends to man, to lay hold of them as devils would and without mercy kill them because someone made up a story that it was God who required.
Well that might be Baphomet, certainly not a Living God would ever require such sacrilege and death trampling his courts of justice, mercy, love, meekness, just those who believe that death must become another's bed.
Do you mean you cannot approach him with repentance for what you state is blind, that you think God who created those same animals who are part of his church would require death as being part of Eden, that you are to be dreaded.
What sort of pagan disjointed religion takes Genesis 1, throws it down off the altar, places man at the forefront of all as a monster who cages animals, slaughters them blind, death being what this constitutes, how is peace and joy in the Kingdom of God?
It never was, neither can it ever be, that how the LORD is a good shepherd, not a liar, a thief disconnected.
Plainly speaking, the sacrifice Abel gave was that he never killed the animal but fire was what he sacrificed.
Does that take away from those same traditions that have taken the earth away from what God first stated.
Cain's sacrifice was a selfish one in that he took from the Earth from what's considered to be sacred ground.
Genesis chapter 1 to be fruitful multiply that everything that has the breath of life makes green plants food.
ISAIAH 66:3~ "HE WHO SLAUGHTERS AN OX IS LIKE HIM WHO KILLS A MAN; HE WHO SACRIFICES A LAMB, LIKE HIM WHO BREAKS A DOG'S NECK;..."
The only thing pagan and disjointed here, is your beliefs which lack understanding of covenant principles. Peace
The only thing pagan and disjointed here, is your beliefs which lack understanding of covenant principles. Peace
No it shows that you have two realities, two faces.
What was said in Genesis chapter 1 never changed.
When you write "Peace" that is a lie that you made.
You stand for a lie that was never to covenant red.
To take blood from animals you are sick in the head.
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