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Please reread Isaiah. His "suffering servant" is frequently identified as Israel sometimes as Jacob personifying Israel. And he didn't die. If fact he had a long life and many children.
Curiously, while Jews follow the passage as written, Christians took it over and changed Jacob into Jesus, who of course didn't have a long life and children.
While the original Hebrew text clearly refers to the Jewish people as the “Suffering Servant,” over the centuries Isaiah 53 has become a cornerstone of the Christian claim that Jesus is the Messiah.
Unfortunately, this claim is based on widespread mistranslations and distortion of context.
Beginning with chapter 41, the equating of God’s Servant with the nation of Israel is made nine times by the prophet Isaiah, and no one other than Israel is identified as the “servant”:
• “You are My servant, O Israel” (41:8)
• “You are My servant, Israel” (49:3)
• see also Isaiah 44:1, 44:2, 44:21, 45:4, 48:20
The Bible is filled with other references to the Jewish people as God’s “servant”; see Jeremiah 30:10, 46:27-28; Psalms 136:22. There is no reason that the “servant” in Isaiah 53 would suddenly switch and refer to someone other than the Jewish people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
Wow!...Someone else who can actually read and comprehend...Imagine that...You see the same thing that I do...But, I am sure that Mike will jump in here and correct your (our?) errors...
... correcting others, has become the Christian way of life - even, if they - themselves are in error.
Please reread Isaiah. His "suffering servant" is frequently identified as Isreal sometimes as Jacob personifying Israel. And he didn't die. If fact he had a long life and many children.
Curiously, while Jews follow the passage as written, Christians took it over and changed Jacob into Jesus, who of course didn't have a long life and children.
While the original Hebrew text clearly refers to the Jewish people as the “Suffering Servant,” over the centuries Isaiah 53 has become a cornerstone of the Christian claim that Jesus is the Messiah. Unfortunately, this claim is based on widespread mistranslations and distortion of context.
Beginning with chapter 41, the equating of God’s Servant with the nation of Israel is made nine times by the prophet Isaiah, and no one other than Israel is identified as the “servant”:
• “You are My servant, O Israel” (41:8)
• “You are My servant, Israel” (49:3)
• see also Isaiah 44:1, 44:2, 44:21, 45:4, 48:20
The Bible is filled with other references to the Jewish people as God’s “servant”; see Jeremiah 30:10, 46:27-28; Psalms 136:22. There is no reason that the “servant” in Isaiah 53 would suddenly switch and refer to someone other than the Jewish people.
Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
Isaiah 53:8-10
No so Jesus!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
This is why I call the Old Testament a Christian edited version of the Hebrew Tanakh...
Yeshayahu - Isaiah - Chapter 53
1 Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?
Rashi's Commentary:
Who would have believed our report: So will the nations say to one another, Were we to hear from others what we see, it would be unbelievable.
*
the arm of the Lord: like this, with greatness and glory, to whom was it revealed until now?
Isaiah 53 begins with the Gentiles asking this question then continues with the Gentiles speaking...The Gentile thinks that by degrading or killing the Jew that he is doing G-d a favor and pleasing Him, when in reality, the Gentile is the one portrayed in Isaiah 53 tormenting the servant of G-d...Israel...
10 And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.10And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
Rashi's Commentary:
And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill: The Holy One, blessed be He, wished to crush him and to cause him to repent; therefore, he made him ill.
*
If his soul makes itself restitution, etc.: Said the Holy One, blessed be He, “I will see, if his soul will be given and delivered with My holiness to return it to Me as restitution for all that he betrayed Me, I will pay him his recompense, and he will see children, etc.” This word אָשָׁם is an expression of ransom that one gives to the one against when he sinned, amende in O.F., to free from faults, similar to the matter mentioned in the episode of the Philistines (I Sam. 6:3), “Do not send it away empty, but you shall send back with it a guilt offering (אָשָׁם).”
Notice the red...So, Christians claiming that Isaiah 53 is about Jesus are also stating that Jesus betrayed G-d...Why would he have to make restitution for his own soul if, according to the Christians, he was perfect [because he was G-d], but here it shows that he must make restitution for his soul because he had betrayed G-d, then afterwards, if he makes that restitution, then he will see his children [descendants], and what they do will prosper, etc....
In the book of Isaiah, different individuals, as well as Israel are called the servant of the Lord. In Isa. 20:3 the servant is Isaiah himself. In Isa. 22:20 the servant is Eliakim, the son of Hilkiah. In Isa. 37:35 the servant is David. In passages such as Isa. 41:8-9, 42:18-20, 43:10, 44:1, 44:21, 45:4, and 48:20, the servant is Israel.
The question is, who is the servant in Isaiah 53 (actually beginning with Isa. 52:13)? The servant in Isaiah 53 is righteous. However, the servant Israel is a sinful nation, weighted down with iniquity, the offspring of evil doers, sons who act corruptly, who have abandoned the Lord and turned away from Him (Isa. 1:4). The servant Israel is in a deep sleep spiritually (Isa. 29:10). The servant Israel gives lip service to the Lord. The servant Israel swears by the name of the Lord, but not in truth or in righteousness (Isa. 48:1). So the servant Israel is not righteous. However the servant in Isa. 53 is righteous.
The servant Israel is viewed as too corrupt. The nation Israel, the servant Israel is itself in need of a redeemer and therefore cannot be the redeemer that the servant in Isaiah 53 is. The servant in Isaiah 53 redeems the servant Israel.
The role of the righteous servant is mentioned in Isaiah 42:7 - 'To open blind eyes and to bring out prisoners from the dungeon.' However, the servant Israel is spiritually blind and deaf (Isaiah 42:18-20). Since the servant Israel is itself blind, it cannot be the servant whose role it is to open blind eyes. The purpose of the righteous servant in Isaiah 53 whose role is mentioned in Isaiah 42:7 is to open the eyes of the unrighteous servant Israel.
Therefore the servant in Isaiah 53 is not Israel. Israel is too corrupt and sinful to fulfill God's mission for them, and so a different Servant is needed to fulfill the role that Israel failed to do.
In Isaiah 49:5-6 God says that the purpose of His servant is to bring Jacob back to Him, so that Israel might be gathered to Him. Therefore this servant is distinguished from Israel. This servant's purpose is to bring Israel back to the Lord. Since this servant's purpose is to bring Israel back to the Lord, this servant is not the nation Israel. Not only is the purpose of this servant to bring Israel back to the Lord, but to be a light to all the nations ''so that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth'' (Isa. 49:6). Therefore, the righteous servant of Isa. 53 is said in Isa. 52:15 to sprinkle many nations.
In Isa. 52:15 the word for sprinkle is 'nazah' and is the same word used of a priest dipping his hand in the blood and sprinkling it on the altar. It's the same word used in various sacrificial passages such as Exodus 29:21; Leviticus 4:6, 17 to name a few. So the righteous, suffering servant of Isa. 53 not only dies for, not only redeems Israel, but also redeems the Gentile nations.
In post #173, Richard refers to Rashi, an 11th century rabbi.
If his soul makes itself restitution, etc.: Said the Holy One, blessed be He, “I will see, if his soul will be given and delivered with My holiness to return it to Me as restitution for all that he betrayed Me, I will pay him his recompense, and he will see children, etc.” This word אָשָׁם is an expression of ransom that one gives to the one against when he sinned, amende in O.F., to free from faults, similar to the matter mentioned in the episode of the Philistines (I Sam. 6:3), “Do not send it away empty, but you shall send back with it a guilt offering (אָשָׁם).”
He highlights ''for all that he betrayed Me.'' But that is not in the text. That is Rahsi's interpretation, his commentary on the text. But the interpretation ignores the plain statements in Isaiah 53 that the servant is righteous and died not for any wrongdoing on His part, but that He offered Himself as a guilt offering and was pierced though for OUR transgressions and crushed for OUR iniquities. The text states that the Lord caused our iniquities to fall on Him. The text of Isaiah 53 says that the servant, the righteous one will justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities. The text states that the righteous servant of Isaiah 53 bore the sins of many and interceded for the transgressors. No, the righteous servant of Isaiah 53 did not betray the Lord as Rashi and Richard claim, but instead He interceded on behalf of the servant Israel who did betray the Lord.
In the early centuries, the dominant view of Isaiah 53 was that it referred not to Israel, but to an individual, to the Messiah.
The Babylonian Talmud consists of Jewish documents which were compiled during the time between the 3rd and 5th centuries. Sanhedrin 98b understands Isaiah 53 to refer to the Messiah, though the rabbis' disagree on who the Messiah is.
Rab said: The world was created only on David's account .24 Samuel said: On Moses account;25 R. Johanan said: For the sake of the Messiah. What is his [the Messiah's] name? — The School of R. Shila said: His name is Shiloh, for it is written, until Shiloh come.26 The School of R. Yannai said: His name is Yinnon, for it is written, His name shall endure for ever:27 e'er the sun was, his name is Yinnon.28 The School of R. Haninah maintained: His name is Haninah, as it is written, Where I will not give you Haninah.29 Others say: His name is Menahem the son of Hezekiah, for it is written, Because Menahem ['the comforter'], that would relieve my soul, The Rabbis said: His name is 'the leper scholar,' as it is written, Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Everything about Isaiah 53 speaks of the righteous servant of the Lord being an individual, the Messiah, who died for the sins of others in order to redeem them.
And again, Jesus said that Isaiah 53 referred to Himself (Luke 22:37), and the apostle Philip said that it referred to Jesus (Acts 8:26-35).
Additionally, in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, the apostle Paul talks about the gospel and says that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures. Paul was referring to the Hebrew Scriptures. And where do we find the Hebrew Scriptures clearly stating that the Messiah would die for our sins? It's right there in Isaiah 53.
As I said at the beginning of this thread, to the unbiased mind, Isaiah 53 clearly refers to the Messiah, not to Israel. And many Jews through the centuries have understood this. Many Jews have believed that Jesus is the Messiah because of Isaiah 53.
Last edited by Michael Way; 07-16-2017 at 04:31 PM..
The book of Revelation is depicting...[...]
What you are reading is Jewish tradition, Jewish idioms of Jewish feasts about a Jewish temple and Jewish prayers being spoken while Jewish priests perform the duties of the temple and officiate their priesthood.
The synagogue of Satan is that what you mean you are part of as for a priesthood. Sure nothing could ever be more misunderstood. You're all about saving souls and pretending that Noah never helped cause that flood. Another must sacrifice for you so that your god may be appeased wallet.
Quote:
You can't even find the answers to Revelation without the Oral Torah and going to Jews.
Do you mean one such as yourself a subterfuge. Well that figures that is all you could ever come up with is you. Just you. Your views. Your rules. Your documentaries. Your shows. How is the microphone.
Quote:
[...]How are you going to sell Jesus without explaining the Passover and the Yom Kippur goat and the Sukkot bull for 70 nations?
How you going to sell a Jesus at all if you show a lawless Messiah?
All you have done is shown the anti-Christ, what would you tell people concerning a Jewish Messiah and his sacrifices? How you going to explain the sacrifices of Jesus without explaining the sacrifices?
LOL.
If you can't believe what came out of the mouth of Jesus, why would anyone believe in your Jesus?
Revelation 3 8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9Behold, I will make them of The synagogue of Satan , which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
WE don't have to wonder who Jews are, they are the ones who love and keep the commandments of God as Revelation keeps showing.
1 John 2:3
By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments.
Revelation 21:27
But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who practices an abomination or a lie, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
In the book of Isaiah, different individuals, as well as Israel are called the servant of the Lord. In Isa. 20:3 the servant is Isaiah himself. In Isa. 22:20 the servant is Eliakim, the son of Hilkiah. In Isa. 37:35 the servant is David. In passages such as Isa. 41:8-9, 42:18-20, 43:10, 44:1, 44:21, 45:4, and 48:20, the servant is Israel.
The question is, who is the servant in Isaiah 53 (actually beginning with Isa. 52:13)? The servant in Isaiah 53 is righteous. However, the servant Israel is a sinful nation, weighted down with iniquity, the offspring of evil doers, sons who act corruptly, who have abandoned the Lord and turned away from Him (Isa. 1:4). The servant Israel is in a deep sleep spiritually (Isa. 29:10). The servant Israel gives lip service to the Lord. The servant Israel swears by the name of the Lord, but not in truth or in righteousness (Isa. 48:1). So the servant Israel is not righteous. However the servant in Isa. 53 is righteous.
The servant Israel is viewed as too corrupt. The nation Israel, the servant Israel is itself in need of a redeemer and therefore cannot be the redeemer that the servant in Isaiah 53 is. The servant in Isaiah 53 redeems the servant Israel.
The role of the righteous servant is mentioned in Isaiah 42:7 - 'To open blind eyes and to bring out prisoners from the dungeon.' However, the servant Israel is spiritually blind and deaf (Isaiah 42:18-20). Since the servant Israel is itself blind, it cannot be the servant whose role it is to open blind eyes. The purpose of the righteous servant in Isaiah 53 whose role is mentioned in Isaiah 42:7 is to open the eyes of the unrighteous servant Israel.
Therefore the servant in Isaiah 53 is not Israel. Israel is too corrupt and sinful to fulfill God's mission for them, and so a different Servant is needed to fulfill the role that Israel failed to do.
In Isaiah 49:5-6 God says that the purpose of His servant is to bring Jacob back to Him, so that Israel might be gathered to Him. Therefore this servant is distinguished from Israel. This servant's purpose is to bring Israel back to the Lord. Since this servant's purpose is to bring Israel back to the Lord, this servant is not the nation Israel. Not only is the purpose of this servant to bring Israel back to the Lord, but to be a light to all the nations ''so that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth'' (Isa. 49:6). Therefore, the righteous servant of Isa. 53 is said in Isa. 52:15 to sprinkle many nations.
In Isa. 52:15 the word for sprinkle is 'nazah' and is the same word used of a priest dipping his hand in the blood and sprinkling it on the altar. It's the same word used in various sacrificial passages such as Exodus 29:21; Leviticus 4:6, 17 to name a few. So the righteous, suffering servant of Isa. 53 not only dies for, not only redeems Israel, but also redeems the Gentile nations.
In post #173, Richard refers to Rashi, an 11th century rabbi.
If his soul makes itself restitution, etc.: Said the Holy One, blessed be He, “I will see, if his soul will be given and delivered with My holiness to return it to Me as restitution for all that he betrayed Me, I will pay him his recompense, and he will see children, etc.” This word אָשָׁם is an expression of ransom that one gives to the one against when he sinned, amende in O.F., to free from faults, similar to the matter mentioned in the episode of the Philistines (I Sam. 6:3), “Do not send it away empty, but you shall send back with it a guilt offering (אָשָׁם).”
He highlights ''for all that he betrayed Me.'' But that is not in the text. That is Rahsi's interpretation, his commentary on the text. But the interpretation ignores the plain statements in Isaiah 53 that the servant is righteous and died not for any wrongdoing on His part, but that He offered Himself as a guilt offering and was pierced though for OUR transgressions and crushed for OUR iniquities. The text states that the Lord caused our iniquities to fall on Him. The text of Isaiah 53 says that the servant, the righteous one will justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities. The text states that the righteous servant of Isaiah 53 bore the sins of many and interceded for the transgressors. No, the righteous servant of Isaiah 53 did not betray the Lord as Rashi and Richard claim, but instead He interceded on behalf of the servant Israel who did betray the Lord.
In the early centuries, the dominant view of Isaiah 53 was that it referred not to Israel, but to an individual, to the Messiah.
The Babylonian Talmud consists of Jewish documents which were compiled during the time between the 3rd and 5th centuries. Sanhedrin 98b understands Isaiah 53 to refer to the Messiah, though the rabbis' disagree on who the Messiah is.
Rab said: The world was created only on David's account .24 Samuel said: On Moses account;25 R. Johanan said: For the sake of the Messiah. What is his [the Messiah's] name? — The School of R. Shila said: His name is Shiloh, for it is written, until Shiloh come.26 The School of R. Yannai said: His name is Yinnon, for it is written, His name shall endure for ever:27 e'er the sun was, his name is Yinnon.28 The School of R. Haninah maintained: His name is Haninah, as it is written, Where I will not give you Haninah.29 Others say: His name is Menahem the son of Hezekiah, for it is written, Because Menahem ['the comforter'], that would relieve my soul, The Rabbis said: His name is 'the leper scholar,' as it is written, Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Everything about Isaiah 53 speaks of the righteous servant of the Lord being an individual, the Messiah, who died for the sins of others in order to redeem them.
And again, Jesus said that Isaiah 53 referred to Himself (Luke 22:37), and the apostle Philip said that it referred to Jesus (Acts 8:26-35).
Additionally, in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, the apostle Paul talks about the gospel and says that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures. Paul was referring to the Hebrew Scriptures. And where do we find the Hebrew Scriptures clearly stating that the Messiah would die for our sins? It's right there in Isaiah 53.
As I said at the beginning of this thread, to the unbiased mind, Isaiah 53 clearly refers to the Messiah, not to Israel. And many Jews through the centuries have understood this. Many Jews have believed that Jesus is the Messiah because of Isaiah 53.
"There is not one palm-tree in Babylon to which a Persian horse will not be tethered."
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