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Do you believe that this hymn is Inspired and infallible?
It's a beautiful hymn and is very similar to the Memorare prayer which I try to pray often.
I would call it "inspired" in the sense that a great Lady was the inspiration for whoever wrote it.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
You do realize there were heresies creeping into the church well before then, right? I mean, read Paul's letters. Read Jude and you'll see they were STRONGLY countering some heretical teachings. So why do you believe this idea of "venerating" Mary is a good thing? The apostles didn't do it, or suggest that veneration of any dead saint, Mary or otherwise, was a good thing.
What you have to realize is that you actually don't know what the Apostles did or didn't do, as very little of what they said and did is actually recorded in Scripture.
You know what Scripture says, but there is a lot that Scripture doesn't say.
That aside, yes there is Biblical support for veneration of saints. We know that relics can have power because Elijah's cloak brought a man back to life, and the hem of Christ's garment healed a woman.
Maccabees (which the revolutionaries conveniently threw out) affirms that praying for the dead is a good and honorable thing.
We also view the Church as One not only on earth, but through time and space. The fellowship between believers on earth and believers in heaven is unbroken. Revelation references the saints heaven carrying the prayers of believers on earth to God.
I believe venerating Mary is a good thing because the angel Gabriel venerated her in his greeting, and her magnificat says that all generations will call her blessed; the Blessed Virgin Mary. Not only that, just speaking personally, she's amazing. There's no way I could live the Christian life well without her. Even with her I don't often live it well
No matter how much I love and honor her, I could never love and honor her more than her Son does.
Not that you claim this, but just as another aside; the argument that venerating the Blessed Virgin Mary or the saints takes away from Christ is so preposterous as to be laughable. I used to say that when I was a Protestant. It's so unbelievably untrue. All of the saints and especially the Blessed Virgin always and only lead us to Christ.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Acts 12:2 mentioned James being put to death with the sword. Did anyone pray to him?
Yes. It was through his intercession that the Spaniards defeated the Moors in the Battle of Clavijo. As for when veneration of St James began, I imagine it was immediately after he was martyred.
The Romans, not the Jews, scourged and crucified Jesus. Judaism simply rejects the person of Jesus as the Moshiach because he did not fulfill the Halachic requirements.
Hi Bungalove as this is off topic can you just give a link to what the Jews believe was not fulfilled by Jesus. or pm me the link.
I don't understand what you mean. Could you elaborate?
If I may...
Luke 2:34-35 "Then Simeon blessed them and said to his mother Mary, 'This child is destined for the falling and the rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be opposed so that the inner thoughts of many will be revealed—and a sword will pierce your own soul too.'"
It's a beautiful hymn and is very similar to the Memorare prayer which I try to pray often.
I would call it "inspired" in the sense that a great Lady was the inspiration for whoever wrote it.
It may be beautiful and enjoyable, but that's not what I asked. Is it Scripture? If not, why are we looking to it for Spiritual truths?
Quote:
What you have to realize is that you actually don't know what the Apostles did or didn't do, as very little of what they said and did is actually recorded in Scripture.
You know what Scripture says, but there is a lot that Scripture doesn't say.
That aside, yes there is Biblical support for veneration of saints. We know that relics can have power because Elijah's cloak brought a man back to life, and the hem of Christ's garment healed a woman.
Maccabees (which the revolutionaries conveniently threw out) affirms that praying for the dead is a good and honorable thing.
We also view the Church as One not only on earth, but through time and space. The fellowship between believers on earth and believers in heaven is unbroken. Revelation references the saints heaven carrying the prayers of believers on earth to God.
I believe venerating Mary is a good thing because the angel Gabriel venerated her in his greeting, and her magnificat says that all generations will call her blessed; the Blessed Virgin Mary. Not only that, just speaking personally, she's amazing. There's no way I could live the Christian life well without her. Even with her I don't often live it well
No matter how much I love and honor her, I could never love and honor her more than her Son does.
Not that you claim this, but just as another aside; the argument that venerating the Blessed Virgin Mary or the saints takes away from Christ is so preposterous as to be laughable. I used to say that when I was a Protestant. It's so unbelievably untrue. All of the saints and especially the Blessed Virgin always and only lead us to Christ.
The angel did not call her Queen of Heaven, Mediatrix, God-bearer, or any of that stuff. He said she was blessed by God. But there was nothing of her having any kid of special title, or role other than that she carried a baby and gave birth. Stop reading into it.
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Yes. It was through his intercession that the Spaniards defeated the Moors in the Battle of Clavijo. As for when veneration of St James began, I imagine it was immediately after he was martyred.
You may assume that it was through a dead guy's intercession that something happened...but how do you know?
In any event, that wasn't what I asked. I'm asking for evidence that any of the apostles prayed to a dead person. James was a great example of one that they COULD have prayed to, as he had just passed, where Mary had not yet (presumably).
It may be beautiful and enjoyable, but that's not what I asked. Is it Scripture? If not, why are we looking to it for Spiritual truths?
No of course it's not Scripture, nor should it be looked to for spiritual truths. It is merely evidence that the Blessed Virgin Mary was venerated in the public liturgy of the Church as early as 250AD.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
The angel did not call her Queen of Heaven, Mediatrix, God-bearer, or any of that stuff. He said she was blessed by God. But there was nothing of her having any kid of special title, or role other than that she carried a baby and gave birth. Stop reading into it.
The angel called her "Kecharitomene". No "reading into it" necessary.
If you believe that Jesus is God (and I know you do), then His mother must necessarily have been "God-bearer" when He was in her womb. What's wrong with that?
It's no different than calling your own mother "BaptistFundie-bearer".
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
You may assume that it was through a dead guy's intercession that something happened...but how do you know?
In any event, that wasn't what I asked. I'm asking for evidence that any of the apostles prayed to a dead person. James was a great example of one that they COULD have prayed to, as he had just passed, where Mary had not yet (presumably).
Acts 9:40 "Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up."
Peter prayed to Tabitha when she was dead. He uttered three words to her that are recorded in Scripture: "Tabitha, get up"
No of course it's not Scripture, nor should it be looked to for spiritual truths. It is merely evidence that the Blessed Virgin Mary was venerated in the public liturgy of the Church as early as 250AD.
And? So what? What's the point?
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The angel called her "Kecharitomene". No "reading into it" necessary.
Stephen was also said to be "full of grace" in Acts 6. As is Jesus, in John 1.
As for Mary, don't read into it what isn't there. Nothing in that greeting suggests that she was particularly special.
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If you believe that Jesus is God (and I know you do), then His mother must necessarily have been "God-bearer" when He was in her womb. What's wrong with that?
It's no different than calling your own mother "BaptistFundie-bearer".
Other than the fact that Scripture never actually talks about her bearing God? That it's not emphasized?
Quote:
Acts 9:40 "Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up."
Peter prayed to Tabitha when she was dead. He uttered three words to her that are recorded in Scripture: "Tabitha, get up"
OK? And?
Shall I find an example of another apostle raising a dead person?
How about Acts 20:9-12? "Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead. Paul went down, threw himself on the young man and put his arms around him. “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “He’s alive!” 11 Then he went upstairs again and broke bread and ate. After talking until daylight, he left. 12 The people took the young man home alive and were greatly comforted."
I don't understand what you mean. Could you elaborate?
God thinks enough of Mary that thru her Our Savior is made visible/knowable.
You either see (rise) or remain blind (fall).
kecharitōmenē ? , and you conclude 'the Messiah's attitude' would be different from God the Fathers'?
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