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What's the "big deal" I'm making out of it? I'm just stating the obvious, that Mary was indeed special........................................... ......................
Not only did Peter pray to a dead woman, but Paul prayed for a dead man in 2 Timothy 1:18, "may the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day!" The "he" prayed for by Paul is Onesiphorus who had already died.
Yes, Mary was special but 'after ' Jesus was baptized he referred to Mary as ' woman ' - John 2:4
I don't read on that day of death. I see nothing to say absolutely that day was the day he died. - 2 Tim. 1:18 ( 2 Tim. 4:19 )
Paul was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures and with what Jesus taught.
( Psalm 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14 )
So, since Jesus and the OT teach the dead are in a sleep-like state, then Paul nor Peter would be praying for the dead - Romans 6:7,23
Last edited by Matthew 4:4; 08-27-2021 at 02:03 PM..
I thought we were in agreement that Paul did pray for Onesiphorus...
Now I'm confused...
Yes, Paul did pray for him and his household, family! Apparently he was deceased at this time.
My point, understanding the Catholic view is that this was not a prayer for salvation! This man and hi sfamily were born-again believers.
Take notice in 2 Tim. 4:19 in Paul's benediction as was his custom. He always acknowledges the saints, in this particular benediction he mentions "the household of Onesiphorus."
My point is that he was a believer and the prayer was not for salvation, that's all I'm saying!
Yes, Mary was special but 'after ' Jesus was baptized he referred to Mary as ' woman ' - John 2:4
I don't read on that day of death. I see nothing to say absolutely that day was the day he died. - 2 Tim. 4:19
Paul was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures and with what Jesus taught.
( Psalm 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14 )
So, since Jesus and the OT teach the dead are in a sleep-like state, then Paul nor Peter would be praying for the dead - Romans 6:7,23
2 Timothy 1:16-18 "May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chain; when he arrived in Rome, he eagerly searched for me and found me —may the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! And you know very well how much service he rendered in Ephesus."
The usage of the past tense is a strong indicator that Onesiphorus has died, yet Paul prays that he will find mercy from the Lord on the day of judgment.
2 Timothy 4:19 "Greet Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus."
Paul asks Timothy to greet Prisca and Aquila personally, but only to greet the household of Onesiphorus; another indicator that he has died.
Thus, you have Paul praying for a dead man in the words of Scripture.
Yes, Paul did pray for him and his household, family! Apparently he was deceased at this time.
My point, understanding the Catholic view is that this was not a prayer for salvation! This man and hi sfamily were born-again believers.
Take notice in 2 Tim. 4:19 in Paul's benediction as was his custom. He always acknowledges the saints, in this particular benediction he mentions "the household of Onesiphorus."
My point is that he was a believer and the prayer was not for salvation, that's all I'm saying!
2 Timothy 1:16-18 "May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chain; when he arrived in Rome, he eagerly searched for me and found me —may the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! And you know very well how much service he rendered in Ephesus."
The usage of the past tense is a strong indicator that Onesiphorus has died, yet Paul prays that he will find mercy from the Lord on the day of judgment.
2 Timothy 4:19 "Greet Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus."
Paul asks Timothy to greet Prisca and Aquila personally, but only to greet the household of Onesiphorus; another indicator that he has died.
Thus, you have Paul praying for a dead man in the words of Scripture.
OK, we agree Paul prayed on behalf of a dead man!
When I seen your post of praying for a dead man the first thing I thought was the Catholic, purgatory.
I wanted to point out (and probably off topic) that the prayer was not based on salvation for the dead man but rather concerning the Judgement Seat of Christ where all believers are judged on their motives for serving Christ. As I said, Paul was praying for God to be merciful in remembering his faithful service at that time of reward giving.
Paul also asked for mercy to be given to this man's household, being that he is now dead and income is lost.
2 Timothy 1:16-18 "May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chain; when he arrived in Rome, he eagerly searched for me and found me —may the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! And you know very well how much service he rendered in Ephesus."
The usage of the past tense is a strong indicator that Onesiphorus has died, yet Paul prays that he will find mercy from the Lord on the day of judgment.
2 Timothy 4:19 "Greet Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus."
Paul asks Timothy to greet Prisca and Aquila personally, but only to greet the household of Onesiphorus; another indicator that he has died.
Thus, you have Paul praying for a dead man in the words of Scripture.
To me, if already dead, faithful Onesiphorus would Not need 'mercy' on Judgement Day because his resurrection would be a favorable judgement instead of adverse.- Acts 24:15 <- a resurrection of the righteous.....
Could it be that Paul was writing under the shadow of his own death - 2 Tim. 1 - running the race faithfully - 2 Tim. 4:6-8.
So, the usage of the past tense could be just referring back to the time he came to refresh Paul in prison 'chains '.
Either way, I think we need to believe Jesus and the OT about the sleeping condition about the dead.
- John 11:11-14; Psalm 6:5; Psalm 13:3; Psalm 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
It may be beautiful and enjoyable, but that's not what I asked. Is it Scripture? If not, why are we looking to it for Spiritual truths?
The angel did not call her Queen of Heaven, Mediatrix, God-bearer, or any of that stuff. He said she was blessed by God. But there was nothing of her having any kid of special title, or role other than that she carried a baby and gave birth. Stop reading into it.
You may assume that it was through a dead guy's intercession that something happened...but how do you know?
In any event, that wasn't what I asked. I'm asking for evidence that any of the apostles prayed to a dead person. James was a great example of one that they COULD have prayed to, as he had just passed, where Mary had not yet (presumably).
Years ago, when I put some of these why-do-Catholics-believe-things-not-in-the-Bible questions to a devout Catholic friend, she had no idea. So, I went to a Catholic bookstore attached to a church nearby and got a book by the apologist Karl Keating. I read the book, then I gave it to my friend (who, by the way, is the person I know who walks the Christian walk more than any other person I've ever met).
The book pointed out that there are prayers for the dead and to the saints on the graves in the Roman catacombs. These practices were apparently in place in very early Christianity.
Reading the book did not make me convert to Catholicism (but a few years later I would get a step closer when I found the Episcopal Church), but it helped me to understand why Catholicism teaches some of the things it does.
So we are in agreement that Paul prayed for a dead man.
Isn't it Paul who wrote at Romans 6:7 that the dead are acquitted of their sins ___________ ( acquitted / freed)
I find the price tag for sin is recorded at Romans 6:23 that the wages ( price tag sin pays ) is: Death.
It does Not say death plus anything else.
It does Not say death plus any post-mortem penalty, nor does it say any double jeopardy for death.
So, it is ' death ' that stamps the asking price tag of sin as: Paid In Full.
Protestants reject Virgin Mary and do you think that makes it different in how Catholics and Protestant view women?
PS: I don't mean to offend anyone. However, I am fascinated with this topic so I am hoping to have great discussions.
I don't think either view is better or worst. Instead, I believe they are different. One aspect I have noticed is that in Catholic religions people in general tend to be given respect. While in Protestant countries they have to "earn respect."
What I mean it seems that women in Catholic countries are "worshiped" or treated differently simply because they are women. Meanwhile, in Protestant and Nordic countries it seems that women have to "prove" their competence at a certain area.
Bible view: Mary was a virgin, in whom God chose to mother His child.
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