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This kind of unnecessary avoidance of the truth is what has caused the majority of strife and discord among the Abrahamic religions. The Romans were the instrument but it was at the behest of the Judaic authorities who considered Him guilty under their laws and accused Him of claiming Kingship.
They did reject Him as the Moshiach because their carnal minds were looking for a worldly King, not a spiritual one. There might have been a very different history had they understood their Torah spiritually instead of carnally.
So are you basically saying that if the Jews had understood their Torah "spiritually", they might have turned out Christians? Wow. The Jews understood and do understand the Torah quite well spiritually, historically, and academically. And there's not a darned thing "carnal" about their minds, either then or now. Judaism is different from Christianity, but it's not "less than" as a religion.
So are you basically saying that if the Jews had understood their Torah "spiritually", they might have turned out Christians? Wow. The Jews understood and do understand the Torah quite well spiritually, historically, and academically. And there's not a darned thing "carnal" about their minds, either then or now. Judaism is different from Christianity, but it's not "less than" as a religion.
As you wish. It has nothing to do with more than or less than. The interpretation of the Torah is definitely not widely being interpreted spiritually, IMO.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 07-08-2021 at 04:49 PM..
As you wish. It has nothing to do with more than or less than. The interpretation of the Torah is definitely not widely being interpreted spiritually, IMO.
That's your opinion from a Christian perspective. It's interpreted spiritually just fine for Jews. Opinions such as yours remind me why I converted in the first place. With Christianity, there's often the attitude of "I/we know the right way, and everyone else is wrong". It's been well-illustrated in this discussion, IMO.
That's your opinion from a Christian perspective. It's interpreted spiritually just fine for Jews. Opinions such as yours remind me why I converted in the first place. With Christianity, there's often the attitude of "I/we know the right way, and everyone else is wrong". It's been well-illustrated in this discussion, IMO.
Actually, I believe the Jews have in the Torah the ability to know the spiritual truth, but it takes a willingness to abandon the concept of their War God that seems to lie at the heart of their refusal to consider God as presented by Jesus. Sadly, it seems to lie at the heart of the Christian appeasement dogma, as well.
Actually, I believe the Jews have in the Torah the ability to know the spiritual truth, but it takes a willingness to abandon the concept of their War God that seems to lie at the heart of their refusal to consider God as presented by Jesus. Sadly, it seems to lie at the heart of the Christian appeasement dogma, as well.
How kind of you to grant us that "ability". That's a nicely supercilious way of saying that Christians are "right", per the usual. BTW, we've gotten way off the thread subject, so I suggest we table any further discussion, as we're not likely to reach any mutual agreement.
How kind of you to grant us that "ability". That's a nicely supercilious way of saying that Christians are "right", per the usual. BTW, we've gotten way off the thread subject, so I suggest we table any further discussion, as we're not likely to reach any mutual agreement.
Hi Bungalove, I'm guessing you are Jewish - if you don't mind me asking, in Jewish tradition aren't Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah highly regarded, viewed as very special among women?
And a 2nd question - isn't 'Jewishness' normally determined by maternal/matrilineal line?
I beg your pardon if my q's are misplaced.
Hi Bungalove, I'm guessing you are Jewish - if you don't mind me asking, in Jewish tradition aren't Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah highly regarded, viewed as very special among women?
And a 2nd question - isn't 'Jewishness' normally determined by maternal/matrilineal line?
I beg your pardon if my q's are misplaced.
Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, and Leah are the four matriarchs who built up our Jewish nation. And yes, the child of a Jewish mother is Jewish, regardless of the father's lineage. You can read a great deal more about both topics at Chabad.org if you choose.
Protestants reject Virgin Mary and do you think that makes it different in how Catholics and Protestant view women?
PS: I don't mean to offend anyone. However, I am fascinated with this topic so I am hoping to have great discussions.
I don't think either view is better or worst. Instead, I believe they are different. One aspect I have noticed is that in Catholic religions people in general tend to be given respect. While in Protestant countries they have to "earn respect."
What I mean it seems that women in Catholic countries are "worshiped" or treated differently simply because they are women. Meanwhile, in Protestant and Nordic countries it seems that women have to "prove" their competence at a certain area.
It seems that you don't understand Protestant thought or Nordic countries.
Truthfully, while Mary is venerated in many Protestant traditions, she's seen as a secondary figure. And there certainly isn't much lighting of candles around her or having a bride lay a bouquet at her feet during a weeding. First, there's the question of her perpetual virginity, which most Protestants view as a dubious claim.
Then there's the question of Mary's virginity itself. People like to think the virgin birth was a historically unique event, but it wasn't. There were lots of virgin births flying around in ancient times, many of those accounts were written before Christ came on the scene. Caesar Augustus was ascribed a virgin birth by Virgil in his Eclogues, several Egyptian pharaohs, Dionysus, Romulus, Asclepius, Helen of Troy, Alexander the Great, a bunch of Selucid kings, and Buddha. Even in Jewish tradition, most notably the writings of the Second Temple Period, Moses, Noah, and Melchezidek were credited with virgin birth. Again, all before the time of Christ's birth.
So I would offer that perhaps we shouldn't put much credence in the entire virgin birth motif of the Bible, chiefly because virgin births were a dime a dozen back then. Chroniclers weren't terribly interested in accuracy, but rather seeking ways to illustrate the uniqueness of their subject. So those writing about Christ's life basically took a fairly common theme of the time and ran with it.
Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, and Leah are the four matriarchs who built up our Jewish nation. And yes, the child of a Jewish mother is Jewish, regardless of the father's lineage. You can read a great deal more about both topics at Chabad.org if you choose.
Thankyou for your response Bungalove!
at that site I found these:
These are beautiful!
I do sense that modern/western protestants (and even many western Catholics) have lost the beauty/appreciation of maternal tradition as reflected above.
I am Catholic but with a deep eastern Catholic influence and as such Blessed Mary is deeply integral to my personal faith as similarly shown in these four links,
and I now have a deeper understanding/appreciation for Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, and Leah!
Thank you for suggesting the site!
In trying to determine what the attitude toward Mary should be it might be useful to start with what the Messiah's attitude was with regard to her. In general it doesn't seem very flattering.
As far as scripture is concerned, the Messiah never refers to Mary as His mother. There are only 3 times mentioned where the Messiah spoke to her. And He seemed to be a bit perturbed with her 2 of those times. The 3rd time He merely told her to look at her son.
Also, He only spoke 2 times with regard to what someone said about her and again His responses couldn't be considered very flattering.
And then aside from the Messiah, there is the fact that other than Galations 4:4 saying that the Messiah was born of a woman, none of the epistle writers ever mention her in any of their lettters including the one to the church at Rome and the two by Peter.
Last edited by rstrats; 08-26-2021 at 04:29 AM..
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That's a nicely supercilious way of saying that Christians are "right", per the usual. BTW, we've gotten way off the thread subject, so I suggest we table any further discussion, as we're not likely to reach any mutual agreement.
