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Christians believe Judaism and the OT were supernaturally revealed. The Jewish faith has hell of limited time and punishment exactly in proportion to ones sins in which everyone eventually makes it to Gods presence . (12 months max in hell for the really bad guys). Christianity posits an eternal hell . So one of the facets of the Christian faith is wrong, the part God revealed to the Jews, or the part God revealed to the Christians.
You dont have to take my word for it, you can study it for yourself. And I can absolutely guarantee you that the difference between a year of redemptive punishment and an eternity of retributive punishment make a LOT of difference .
Christians never cease to amaze me. You honestly disagree that having Gods stated plan be that all people come to salvation, and the church's belief that many, maybe most, of humanity will suffer neverending torment in an eternal hell, and see no contradiction between the two. Wow.
The concept of eternal punishment for a limited amount of sin makes absolutely no sense. And not a single Christian would agree that it does, if it werent for the fact they feel themselves disagreeing with God to say otherwise. Even Hitlers karmic debt ends at some point.
Its sometimes hard to take you guys seriously when you make these kinds of arguments. Eternal punishment for finite sin makes no sense. Saying that the plan of redemption of all mankind involves much of humanity suffering horrible torment eternally makes no sense. Im not deliberately trying to be rude, but man, think on it a little. If you believe all of it fine, but it is ridiculous to claim that the Christian faith doesn't fall short of redeeming all mankind when much of it will suffer eternally in your view.
You are dealing with an unreasoning credulity in an institution of man that cannot be reasoned with. There is no reason or rationality there.
No; I'd make a distinction here between "Judaism" and "the OT", as they are not the same thing.
Did God "reveal" this 12 month doctrine to the Jews as a dogma? If he did, where is it? Wouldn't it be recorded in the Prophets?
It's nothing but Rabbinical speculation.
I have always found it amusing that English speaking Christians of the 20 and 21st centuries seem to believe they know more about the OT than the people that wrote and lived it
They do get the 12 month doctrine from the OT scripture. I couldn’t tell you which one offhand though. But it’s not made up . Unlike, say, the Immaculate Conception.
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We do not believe in "eternal punishment for a limited amount of sin". A person committing only a limited amount of sin would not suffer eternal punishment. Eternal punishment is reserved for those of whom the gravity of their sin is infinite.
You cannot commit infinite sin in a finite lifespan . That’s not rationally possible . Even Hitlers sin is finite, even though horribly enormous .
I have always found it amusing that English speaking Christians of the 20 and 21st centuries seem to believe they know more about the OT than the people that wrote and lived it
They do get the 12 month doctrine from the OT scripture. I couldn’t tell you which one offhand though. But it’s not made up . Unlike, say, the Immaculate Conception.
I don't claim to know much about the OT.
Please locate where in Scripture the 12 month doctrine allegedly comes from, as I don't feel like I owe you any special deference on this.
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Originally Posted by NatesDude
You cannot commit infinite sin in a finite lifespan . That’s not rationally possible . Even Hitlers sin is finite, even though horribly enormous .
It is perfectly rational. Since the goodness and majesty of God are infinite, a mortal sin against God merits infinite punishment.
"It is useless to object that it does not seem just to inflict an eternal punishment for a sin which endures but a moment. For St. Augustine remarks that punishment is not measured by duration of a fault, but by its gravity. Even at the tribunals of justice here on earth, the penalty of death is imposed upon some crimes which are committed in an instant.
The Angelic Doctor adds that it is but just that the punishment should not cease as long as the fault does not cease. Now, a fault which remains eternally can be remitted only by the grace of God, which man cannot acquire after death. As we have seen above, the will of the damned is obstinate in evil. Hence, he continues to love his sin at the same time that he submits to its punishment. How, then, can God deliver him from his chastisement, while he continues to love his fault? How can God pardon his sin, while the damned is hardened in his hatred for God, if at the same time the Lord offered him pardon and friendship, the damned refused both the one and the other?
Nor can it be objected, as some heretics do, that it is contrary to the goodness and mercy of God to behold one of His creatures suffer eternally from such terrible punishments in Hell. For, as St. Thomas remarks, God has given superabundant witness of His goodness and mercy toward men. Beholding all men lost by the sin of Adam and their own sins, what great goodness did He not manifest in descending from Heaven to earth to become man, in the endurance of a poor, humble and afflicted life, in pouring forth the very last drop of His Blood amid such terrible torments upon an infamous gibbet? What greater proof of His goodness could He have given to men than to leave to them His own Body and Blood in the Blessed Sacrament of the Altar, that they might there find nourishment for their souls, and that, through this means, they might preserve and increase their spiritual forces until death, after which, finding themselves more closely united to God, they might enter into Heaven, there to enjoy eternally the life of the blessed?"
"It is useless to object that it does not seem just to inflict an eternal punishment for a sin which endures but a moment. For St. Augustine remarks that punishment is not measured by duration of a fault, but by its gravity. Even at the tribunals of justice here on earth, the penalty of death is imposed upon some crimes which are committed in an instant.
The Angelic Doctor adds that it is but just that the punishment should not cease as long as the fault does not cease. Now, a fault which remains eternally can be remitted only by the grace of God, which man cannot acquire after death. As we have seen above, the will of the damned is obstinate in evil. Hence, he continues to love his sin at the same time that he submits to its punishment. How, then, can God deliver him from his chastisement, while he continues to love his fault? How can God pardon his sin, while the damned is hardened in his hatred for God, if at the same time the Lord offered him pardon and friendship, the damned refused both the one and the other?
Nor can it be objected, as some heretics do, that it is contrary to the goodness and mercy of God to behold one of His creatures suffer eternally from such terrible punishments in Hell. For, as St. Thomas remarks, God has given superabundant witness of His goodness and mercy toward men. Beholding all men lost by the sin of Adam and their own sins, what great goodness did He not manifest in descending from Heaven to earth to become man, in the endurance of a poor, humble and afflicted life, in pouring forth the very last drop of His Blood amid such terrible torments upon an infamous gibbet? What greater proof of His goodness could He have given to men than to leave to them His own Body and Blood in the Blessed Sacrament of the Altar, that they might there find nourishment for their souls, and that, through this means, they might preserve and increase their spiritual forces until death, after which, finding themselves more closely united to God, they might enter into Heaven, there to enjoy eternally the life of the blessed?"
A very lame comparison. The DP itself is not torment, except for perhaps a few seconds to a minute. Then nothing as far as we know. Of course the good doctors have to find a way to defend the doctrine of eternal punishment for finite sin, otherwise they would have to abandon it. The doctors, or at least one of them, also taught that babies and even aborted fetuses go to hell. They just dont suffer AS badly as adult sinners. And Catholics find a way to defend this concept also. Believe it all as you wish.
The doctors, or at least one of them, also taught that babies and even aborted fetuses go to hell. They just dont suffer AS badly as adult sinners. And Catholics find a way to defend this concept also. Believe it all as you wish.
You're mischaracterizing "the doctor's" position. The proposition you're referring to is that unbaptized babies who die in innocence will not suffer at all in the afterlife, but will experience a place of natural bliss.
A very lame comparison. The DP itself is not torment, except for perhaps a few seconds to a minute. Then nothing as far as we know. Of course the good doctors have to find a way to defend the doctrine of eternal punishment for finite sin, otherwise they would have to abandon it.
You might not like the analogy, but the fact of the matter is that "punishment is not measured by duration of a fault, but by its gravity".
A mortal sin is infinitely grave and deserves infinite punishment.
You might not like the analogy, but the fact of the matter is that "punishment is not measured by duration of a fault, but by its gravity".
A mortal sin is infinitely grave and deserves infinite punishment.
No offense, but that is just you parroting the RCC line of reasoning. The same line of reasoning that decided babies go to hell because they werent baptized.
Using conception is a mortal sin in the RCC. Yeah, that condom is worthy of an eternity in hell
A very lame comparison. The DP itself is not torment, except for perhaps a few seconds to a minute. Then nothing as far as we know. Of course the good doctors have to find a way to defend the doctrine of eternal punishment for finite sin, otherwise they would have to abandon it. The doctors, or at least one of them, also taught that babies and even aborted fetuses go to hell. They just dont suffer AS badly as adult sinners. And Catholics find a way to defend this concept also. Believe it all as you wish.
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Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
You might not like the analogy, but the fact of the matter is that "punishment is not measured by duration of a fault, but by its gravity".
A mortal sin is infinitely grave and deserves infinite punishment.
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Originally Posted by NatesDude
No offense, but that is just you parroting the RCC line of reasoning. The same line of reasoning that decided babies go to hell because they weren't baptized.
Using conception is a mortal sin in the RCC. Yeah, that condom is worthy of an eternity in hell
You can't enjoy sex, if you aren't desiring to have a child - it would be a sin or a transgression of Roman Catholic doctrine.
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