Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
OK, so your stance is that the letter saying that it was to all happen soon and shortly , and that the time was near, in no way implies that it was to happen in the lifespan of the Christians the letter was written to . Okey dokey .
Did Jesus return to the earth physically and bodily and establish his Millennial kingdom on the earth? No. Are we now in the new heavens and new earth? No. Those events which are literal have not yet happened, and so no, the Tribulation and the events following the Tribulation have not happened as of yet. Period.
Did Jesus return to the earth physically and bodily and establish his Millennial kingdom on the earth? No. Are we now in the new heavens and new earth? No. Those events which are literal have not yet happened, and so no, the Tribulation and the events following the Tribulation have not happened as of yet. Period.
You are caught in the trap of literalism . The letter says 2 different things to you .One, in plain language, that the time is at hand , is near, will happen soon. Two, passages of vivid imagery that paint a picture for the early Christians in life and death distress . Caught between two contradictory things, you choose to ignore the plain simple instructions of how to deal with the letter , and choose to read the imagery as literal. Other Christians choose to read the instructions on how to treat and dispense the letter as the literal part, and the imagery as allegory and symbolism . In doing so they are able to let the clear words in the prologue and epilogue say what they say , that the time being referred to is near, at hand .
You are caught in the trap of literalism . The letter says 2 different things to you .One, in plain language, that the time is at hand , is near, will happen soon. Two, passages of vivid imagery that paint a picture for the early Christians in life and death distress . Caught between two contradictory things, you choose to ignore the plain simple instructions of how to deal with the letter , and choose to read the imagery as literal. Other Christians choose to read the instructions on how to treat and dispense the letter as the literal part, and the imagery as allegory and symbolism . In doing so they are able to let the clear words in the prologue and epilogue say what they say , that the time being referred to is near, at hand .
No, I'm not. There is nothing figurative about either the future return of Jesus and the establishment of his Millennial kingdom.
The book of Revelation has much figurative and symbolic language. But the figures and the symbolism and the imagery always point to something literal. Jesus stated outside of the book of Revelation that he would return. So no, statements of his future return are not figurative or symbolic of something else. And if you are going to claim that his future return and the establishment of his Millennial kingdom are symbolic you had better be prepared to state what they of symbolic of.
It is certainly necessary to properly understand what is literal from what is figurative or symbolic. The failure to do so makes proper interpretation impossible. But I'm not the one who is failing to properly tell which is which.
You can't get past the statements pertaining to the 'nearness' language and so you disregard things which are literal and make them allegorical in order to make them fit your preteristic view.
Jesus has not yet returned to establish the Millennial kingdom which will be literal events. Therefore the events of the Tribulation have not yet occurred since those events immediately follow the Tribulation.
No, I'm not. There is nothing figurative about either the future return of Jesus and the establishment of his Millennial kingdom.
The book of Revelation has much figurative and symbolic language. But the figures and the symbolism and the imagery always point to something literal. Jesus stated outside of the book of Revelation that he would return. So no, statements of his future return are not figurative or symbolic of something else. And if you are going to claim that his future return and the establishment of his Millennial kingdom are symbolic you had better be prepared to state what they of symbolic of.
It is certainly necessary to properly understand what is literal from what is figurative or symbolic. The failure to do so makes proper interpretation impossible. But I'm not the one who is failing to properly tell which is which.
You can't get past the statements pertaining to the 'nearness' language and so you disregard things which are literal and make them allegorical in order to make them fit your preteristic view.
Jesus has not yet returned to establish the Millennial kingdom which will be literal events. Therefore the events of the Tribulation have not yet occurred since those events immediately follow the Tribulation.
Since you cannot accept the clear words in the prologue and epilogue that the time of the fulfillment of the letter is near, you are demonstrably caught between 2 contradictory statements, regardless of whether you are willing to admit it or not . Revelation clearly says many times the time is near, is at hand. It also tells you , by your interpretation, that it has not happened yet . Both cannot be true. Therefore , you are trapped between having to choose between the two . You choose the futurist view , but in doing so reject the literal words that say the time is soon. Your unwillingness to admit this doesn’t alter this fact any .
The time being at hand does not mean that it all was fulfilled within that 40 years though
In the Acts of the Apostles there is a statement from Peter that it was the 3rd hour and refers back to the prophecy of Joel - and this was about the coming of the Holy Spirit (and also uses the judgement language that is within Revelation)
Act 2:14**But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Act 2:15**For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16**But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17**And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18**And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19**And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20**The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21**And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
I believe The timing for the latter days is the full period of the 2000 years / 2 days
Since you cannot accept the clear words in the prologue and epilogue that the time of the fulfillment of the letter is near, you are demonstrably caught between 2 contradictory statements, regardless of whether you are willing to admit it or not . Revelation clearly says many times the time is near, is at hand. It also tells you , by your interpretation, that it has not happened yet . Both cannot be true. Therefore , you are trapped between having to choose between the two . You choose the futurist view , but in doing so reject the literal words that say the time is soon. Your unwillingness to admit this doesn’t alter this fact any .
And I told you that you are stuck on the 'nearness' language to the point where you disregard events which are prophetic in nature and pertain to events which simply have not happened in history. They are future. You are denying the future literal return of Jesus and the establishment of a literal physical Millennial kingdom on the earth.
It's telling that you want to take the 'nearness' language as literal but you dismiss the return of Jesus and the establishment of the Millennial kingdom as non-literal events.
I am curious ... do you all even HEAR YOURSELVES as you rant and rave amongst each other? That's a real question -- I'm not being sarcastic or mean, really.
I guess I am just flabbergasted that you really don't know how you ... um ... sound (I'm trying to put it nicely here) to people who ... um ... don't believe exactly the same "stuff" you believe?
Jesus clearly stated that his disciples can be identified by their fruits Karen. It is easy to observe those who truly desire to serve God. True Christians have the benefit of displaying the fruitages of the spirit, how peaceful our lives are.
And I told you that you are stuck on the 'nearness' language to the point where you disregard events which are prophetic in nature and pertain to events which simply have not happened in history. They are future. You are denying the future literal return of Jesus and the establishment of a literal physical Millennial kingdom on the earth.
It's telling that you want to take the 'nearness' language as literal but you dismiss the return of Jesus and the establishment of the Millennial kingdom as non-literal events.
Personally I do not care what interpretation people use. Mine is just more of an academic interest . I find it ironic and humorous that the people who claim to be literalists are the ones most likely to skip right over the indisputable plain and simple words of when it will happen, to try and make the extremely vivid and purposely creative imagery literal . I am stuck on the nearness part because that is part of the instructions the writer gave before going into the Jewish apocalyptic imagery . Your version makes the letter meaningless to the very people it was given to .
By your view, here is a sample of the conversations believers of the 100AD period had with God when they got to Heaven:
“ Why did you not come for us when you promised , God? We were suffering, we received your word that you would come soon for us, that the time was near , and that we only had to endure a short period , but you never came . I have endured 30 years after that, and died , and you never came “
“ You silly ninnies ! When I said soon, I meant by my timescale . One day is as a thousand years to me . Although now, thinking about it, maybe I should have used timescales you understood so you wouldn’t get confused . Sorry, my bad “
There are a number of ways to interpret the letter . If people choose to ignore the words of the prologue and epilogue as to when it applies to , that’s their right . The entire Bible is done this way , which is why there are thousands of different sects . It’s also why the futurist view become more popular after the Protestant Reformation, with the rise of literacy among common people and Bibles becoming more widespread via the printing press , when it became every man for himself on reading the Bible and readers with no understanding at all of Jewish history , writing, or apocalyptic imagery began to accept the futurist view more . They were divorced from any scholarly understanding of Judaism and it’s history .
Last edited by NatesDude; 11-04-2021 at 09:57 AM..
Several times I’ve used the word “uncanny” to describe how the New Testament description of the End Times matches what we see happening today.
Jesus and the NT authors might have been expected to describe a steady forward march of Christianity until all the world was a Gospel-believing, Spirit-filled utopia. In fact, they described exactly the opposite.
I hate when people string Bible verses, so I won’t beat this to death. The following snippets from the NT serve to make my point about the state of Christianity in the End Times:
False Christs and false prophets will arise and will provide great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
False prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.
In the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be … lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons.
I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.
You get the point: In the End Times, the Gospel will be perverted beyond recognition. People will have a form of godliness but none of its power. They will accumulate teachers who tell them what they want to hear, who cater to their lusts.
How can anyone be so lacking in discernment that he or she fails to see this is what is happening all around us? How can anyone with the slightest modicum of discernment fail to connect the dots?
The Gospel has been twisted into a feel-good message of “tolerance” for everyone and everything that completely guts it of any notion of God’s justice, human sin and God’s judgment. As we see on these forums every day, it’s a message so toothless it isn’t even challenging to atheists!
Those who present the actual Gospel message, on the other hand, are attacked by the promoters of these alternative Christianities and atheists alike! They are dinosaurs, out of touch with modern “enlightened” thinking.
Every one of these alternative Christianities distorts the Gospel message in ways that rob it of its truth, of its saving power. They uniformly make a mockery of the actual Gospel. 50% of the Gospel is no Gospel at all.
I have only one explanation: I believe supernatural evil has been unleashed to an unprecedented degree and a veil of delusion has descended over mankind. We see it not only in the perversion of the Gospel but in the almost wholesale collapse of Judeo-Christian morality in an astonishingly short time. Consistent with my increasing turn toward Calvinism, I suspect God may simply have abandoned the unsaved to their own lusts and their twisted notions of the Gospel. I believe we are solidly in the End Times.
This appears to you to be describing today's "end times", but the reality is, that people over hundreds of years have felt it relevant to their day. The reason for this is, that it describes a certain subset of human behavior. You could call it a certain type of psychopathology, narcissism, whatever, but there have always been con artists, charismatic cult leaders, and the like. Barring a major miracle, there always will be.
Also, you're taking one religion's document, one slice of humanity on this Earth, and are assuming it has an exclusive Truth. The Buddha said essentially the same thing, and taught followers how to discern between false teachers and the real deal. "Prophets" of other religions probably made similar observations. Christianity doesn't have a corner on observations of human nature, nor predictions of "end times". OTOH, some other religions or philosophical systems don't concern themselves with forebodings of doom, and are simply about guidance for daily living.
Sadly, there has always been evil, there's always been co-opting of religion for personal gain, and the whole ball of wax that's the human condition. Every time is the End Time (take WWI & WWII, for example. Or Europe's view of the Mongol invasion).
"
This appears to you to be describing today's "end times", but the reality is, that people over hundreds of years have felt it relevant to their day. The reason for this is, that it describes a certain subset of human behavior. You could call it a certain type of psychopathology, narcissism, whatever, but there have always been con artists, charismatic cult leaders, and the like. Barring a major miracle, there always will be.
Also, you're taking one religion's document, one slice of humanity on this Earth, and are assuming it has an exclusive Truth. The Buddha said essentially the same thing, and taught followers how to discern between false teachers and the real deal. "Prophets" of other religions probably made similar observations. Christianity doesn't have a corner on observations of human nature, nor predictions of "end times". OTOH, some other religions or philosophical systems don't concern themselves with forebodings of doom, and are simply about guidance for daily living.
Sadly, there has always been evil, there's always been co-opting of religion for personal gain, and the whole ball of wax that's the human condition. Every time is the End Time (take WWI & WWII, for example. Or Europe's view of the Mongol invasion).
"
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
