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I think this has been a wonderful thread. Thank you.
There's something that just seems harsh about " unrepentant sinners not being tolerated " The more I examine myself, the more I realize that I may not even be aware of sins I've committed.
How can I repent for that which I ( or anybody for that matter ) is unaware.
Otherwise, I agree with everything else.
What if instead of " won't tolerate " I say " but this can be accomplished as the result of our relationship with Him "
In my opinion, it is ALL about my relationship with Him. I love Him, and He loves me. It is then I KNOW what you say is correct. All the repenting, self flagulation, and whatever else we try to do, is insufficient, without the relationship.
Perhaps we're saying the same thing. Just in a different way.
You put it in a way much better than I did! As for sins we aren’t aware of…Ask God to not only forgive the sins you know you’ve committed but also the ones you’re unaware of. Ask Him to guide you in all you do. Nurture your relationship with Him daily by praying and being in the word.
That is interesting. I became an atheist for the opposite reason as you -- in spite of wanting very much to believe that god exists (and in fact, having long believed that). I was a devoted Christian for about thirty years, from just short of age 6 until about 37. And it is true in my experience that by being uncritically open to god, and immersing yourself in the teachings, you indeed find that it is plausible / 'truthy'. But in my case, despite being quite faithful and indeed spending some time in formal theological training, the abstraction began to leak for various reasons and I could not plug the leaks. And I have found in the 28 years since leaving the faith that my mental and emotional health is better, and I have had no need or desire to believe in God -- not only have I not missed it but have been relieved to be free of the cognitive dissonance of reconciling a loving, compassionate, interventionist god with the my lived experience.
I am glad that you are happy as you are though, truly. It sounds to me like atheism appealed to you as an intellectual adventure but you missed the world you left. In my case I was dragged kicking and screaming and leaving deep skid marks, out of the faith, because it no longer made sense, or allowed me to make sense of my life. It probably also helped that I am more the heady / introverted type and there was less to miss in terms of belonging or social needs, but then again, a review of other major religions on my way out did not get around the fundamental epistemological concerns I now had, either.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you say that if you desire to seek god you will have no trouble believing he exists, are you really not saying that you will find convincing evidence of his existence? Because without evidence, the formation of belief is not possible. And then it is down to evidential standards: what constitutes evidence, and what extraordinary proof is available for extraordinary truth claims?
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I realize that some find personal inner experience to be sufficient in this regard, and I often suspect that this inner "knowing" is far more impressive no for some folks than others. It never was a "thing" for me. But then I'm not the sort of person you'd call intuitive, either. I'm a very concrete thinker. This is not better, it is just different. I made sense of my life through my faith in god, until I no longer could.
One question, if I may ... why did you "not want god to exist"? What problem did that pose for you at the time? That is not a thought that ever crossed my mind, so I'm curious.
I wonder how much of your faith was dependent upon what you had been taught (“formal theological training”) as opposed to you actually gaining knowledge from the Scriptures themselves. Growing up in the teachings of Catholicism didn’t bring me any meaningful faith. That’s why it was so easy for me to turn away from it. There was no anchor in the Catholic Church for me to take hold of. Faith didn’t develop in me until I was in my early thirties. The seed was planted once I began to read and study the word of God. Imho, faith doesn’t come by teachings (traditions) of men. In all fairness, there was never a time in my life that I didn’t believe in the existence of God. That probably was due to the influence of my Mother. But with that said, I did not have any sort of relationship with Him at all. I did, however, have a desire to know God, but that didn’t hit until much later.
With all due respect, you seem to contradict yourself here. First you say that you stopped believing in God despite wanting Him to exist. But then you said you were relieved to be free from the cognitive dissonance between your view of God and your lived experience, and that you do not miss believing in His existence.
Given your religious background, it seems you had a great deal of personal investment in it. But, based on your own words, you seem to view it as loss. What I'm getting at is, there is a concept called "sunk cost" - it's where we tend to act as if we ought to persist in a bad decision because we've already incurred irretrievable loss on account of it, when the more rational choice would be to disregard past losses and behave in accordance with future expectations. That's what it sounds like to me. That is, you persisted in religion until age 37. That you can't get back the time and effort is the sunk cost. I can understand why we, in general, lament sunk costs, but this does not strike me as an example of losing belief in the existence of God despite wanting Him to exist. Considering our propensity to avoid sunk costs, I can understand this sentiment. If you wanted God to exist, you would miss believing in His existence. It's that simple. It's almost like 2 + 2 = 4 logic at this point. But you tell me you don't miss this, and I believe you as far as that's concerned.
It couldn't be further from the truth that I missed the world I left when I became an atheist. And this addresses your question. I was raised Roman Catholic. I became an atheist at age 14. In about the 6 or so months prior to my declaring myself an atheist, I learned more about the Catholic religion and just how legalistic it is. That is, the doctrine of mortal sins and how they, if not confessed and absolved, would condemn the soul to eternal damnation. I didn't want to live under that system. Who would? Maybe for a season, but that's it, as we're all sinners, and He is the righteous Judge. The Bible says, we love God because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). I don't care how much anyone says they love God (and neither does He care). The heart is fickle; it's made of the dust of the earth. What blossoms from the earth will wither and die without water. But He is the eternal Wellspring. I have the earnest of my inheritance. I have eternal life, which I can never lose. It's impossible for me not to want God to exist now, as I know eternal life is mine, and all my sins are forgiven. It's not conditionally mine, if I fulfill whatever future conditions. No. It's unconditional. I love Him because He first loved me. I am made a partaker of the divine nature; just as God cannot oppose Himself, neither can I, for in doing so I oppose myself.
OK well apropos of my question I take it then that the god you "needed not to exist" was the Catholic version. Can't say that I blame you.
I liked the version of god I grew up with because he was nice enough to forgive me. That god I wanted to exist. I had no issues with him, at least when I was too young and un-formed to fully think all the implications through. But that same god made some pretty specific promises that I based life decisions on. That is where the cognitive dissonance came from. On THIS side of belief, AS an unbeliever, I don't miss it, because I now realize it was a faux comfort that I was embracing. A lot of my felt need for god and for my faith was just learned helplessness, and once I realized that, i was able to let go of it.
That said, I understand that faith works just fine for many and so long as those folks do not feel it authorizes them to judge or control people who come to different conclusions, it's all good.
I wonder how much of your faith was dependent upon what you had been taught (“formal theological training”) as opposed to you actually gaining knowledge from the Scriptures themselves. Growing up in the teachings of Catholicism didn’t bring me any meaningful faith. That’s why it was so easy for me to turn away from it. There was no anchor in the Catholic Church for me to take hold of. Faith didn’t develop in me until I was in my early thirties. The seed was planted once I began to read and study the word of God. Imho, faith doesn’t come by teachings (traditions) of men. In all fairness, there was never a time in my life that I didn’t believe in the existence of God. That probably was due to the influence of my Mother. But with that said, I did not have any sort of relationship with Him at all. I did, however, have a desire to know God, but that didn’t hit until much later.
The theological training was post high school, long after my beliefs had formed. I had read and studied the scriptures for years before that. I can say that up until my apostasy there was never a time I did not believe in god either, or at least, I had zero resistance to being introduced to him. One assumes one's parents and teachers know what they're on about, after all. And as for the relationship part, that was the whole point of making a profession of faith / accepting Jesus, to establish a relationship. I understood the gospel as god's open offer to me for understanding, wisdom, support, etc., via the holy spirit.
Did I have an actual "relationship"? Depends on how you define the word. My mother's favorite hymn was "In the Garden" -- you likely know the lyrics: "And he walks with me and he talks with me and he tells me I am his own, and the joys we share as we tarry there, none other had ever known". Literally THAT sort of intimacy I think even my mother considered aspirational. Jesus never said "Hey Mordant, how is it going today. Anything you need help with"? It was a one-sided conversation at all times. But this did not particularly perturb me, because I had heard that only crazy people hear voices in their heads and only the REALLY crazy ones have conversations with them. It only bothered me later, when some of my fellow believers made increasingly elaborate claims of hearing from god more directly, and in fact seemed to be falling over each other, topping each other's stories. It smelled fishy.
Anyway ... that was a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.
You put it in a way much better than I did! As for sins we aren’t aware of…Ask God to not only forgive the sins you know you’ve committed but also the ones you’re unaware of. Ask Him to guide you in all you do. Nurture your relationship with Him daily by praying and being in the word.
Yes, you are both correct that God knows the heart. That being said, I know what the Bible has to say about the knowledge God has given men about His existence. And, having been an atheist for 14 years, it also rings true to me. I became an atheist because, at the time, I didn't want God to exist. I learned that there were some people called atheists who don't believe in God. I thought it was a really crazy idea--but, seeing as all these intelligent people believe this--I managed to convince myself of this proposition. What changed for me after those 14 years is I just started wanting to believe in God--more specifically, to seek after Him. I believe that if you desire to seek after Him, then you will have no trouble believing in His existence, because the evidence is overwhelming.
The universe has an omnipotent Creator and Ruler. And He created all the things we know--e.g., joy, happiness, love. What could possibly compare to knowing Him?
Not everyone knows joy, happiness, and love.
I am not saying I don't, either, but there was a day when I once said to a therapist when he mentioned the word "joy" once too many times, "I don't know what that word means. I don't know what 'joy' feels like". The reverse of what you say is often true--the evidence is underwhelming.
Well into middle age, I got a few fleeting glimpses at last. But even when you know people in your life love you, how does that translate into knowing God loves you? Atheists feel love, don't they? But you can't feel that God loves you. You are just supposed to believe it without being able to experience it.
I have asked this question many times, but I've never gotten a satisfactory answer. If you can't feel the love of God, what good is it? Why would you believe in something you cannot experience?
But even when you know people in your life love you, how does that translate into knowing God loves you? Atheists feel love, don't they? But you can't feel that God loves you. You are just supposed to believe it without being able to experience it.
I am fortunate in that I "come from love" as my wife puts it -- I always was secure in the love of my family.
The irony for me was that this experience made it easier for me to imagine god loving me. I mean why wouldn't he, all the other authority figures in my life did. And since I didn't need to look for god to supply something that I already had, I put very few demands on him in that regard. It was enough at first that he wasn't sending me to hell, that he and I were ok, and I happily lapped up the scriptures and grew in my understanding that god loved me and would be there for me if I ever needed him. Of course I trusted him for my day to day needs, assuming that the love of my parents and siblings, my full belly, the clothes on my back and the roof over my head were expressions of his love.
It was only in my young adult phase that I actually needed some things that I could only get from god ... and was consistently unable to obtain them. And THEN I started feeling like he was all talk and no action, which of course, feels, if not unloved exactly, then certainly taken for granted.
Lacking as I do belief in this god fella now, I feel kind of silly even talking in these terms today. But I'm trying to convey how I experienced "the love of god" at that time in my life.
I am not saying I don't, either, but there was a day when I once said to a therapist when he mentioned the word "joy" once too many times, "I don't know what that word means. I don't know what 'joy' feels like". The reverse of what you say is often true--the evidence is underwhelming.
Well into middle age, I got a few fleeting glimpses at last. But even when you know people in your life love you, how does that translate into knowing God loves you? Atheists feel love, don't they? But you can't feel that God loves you. You are just supposed to believe it without being able to experience it.
I have asked this question many times, but I've never gotten a satisfactory answer. If you can't feel the love of God, what good is it? Why would you believe in something you cannot experience?
I can testify that I have the joy of the Lord in my soul and that I know exactly what it means and what it feels like.
I started experiencing that joy when I said to God, "I don't know if You're real; but I'm going to start reading Your word and doing what it says; and I know that if You're real You will reveal Yourself to me."
The Lord didn't even wait two seconds. Immediately He poured into my soul a joy and a peace that I cannot describe except to say that it washed over me in waves of liquid love.
I'm not promising that He will do the same for you if you copy my step of faith; but I will say that the heaven that He gave me a foretaste of is very real and if you don't experience that joy on earth when you believe, you will experience it when you pass on into the next life (if you believe).
Last edited by justbyfaith; 05-12-2022 at 01:09 AM..
I am fortunate in that I "come from love" as my wife puts it -- I always was secure in the love of my family.
The irony for me was that this experience made it easier for me to imagine god loving me. I mean why wouldn't he, all the other authority figures in my life did. And since I didn't need to look for god to supply something that I already had, I put very few demands on him in that regard. It was enough at first that he wasn't sending me to hell, that he and I were ok, and I happily lapped up the scriptures and grew in my understanding that god loved me and would be there for me if I ever needed him. Of course I trusted him for my day to day needs, assuming that the love of my parents and siblings, my full belly, the clothes on my back and the roof over my head were expressions of his love.
It was only in my young adult phase that I actually needed some things that I could only get from god ... and was consistently unable to obtain them. And THEN I started feeling like he was all talk and no action, which of course, feels, if not unloved exactly, then certainly taken for granted.
Lacking as I do belief in this god fella now, I feel kind of silly even talking in these terms today. But I'm trying to convey how I experienced "the love of god" at that time in my life.
You need to consider the verb tenses in Matthew 7:7-8.
It is "Keep on asking; keep on seeking; keep on knocking".
The theological training was post high school, long after my beliefs had formed. I had read and studied the scriptures for years before that. I can say that up until my apostasy there was never a time I did not believe in god either, or at least, I had zero resistance to being introduced to him. One assumes one's parents and teachers know what they're on about, after all. And as for the relationship part, that was the whole point of making a profession of faith / accepting Jesus, to establish a relationship. I understood the gospel as god's open offer to me for understanding, wisdom, support, etc., via the holy spirit.
Did I have an actual "relationship"? Depends on how you define the word. My mother's favorite hymn was "In the Garden" -- you likely know the lyrics: "And he walks with me and he talks with me and he tells me I am his own, and the joys we share as we tarry there, none other had ever known". Literally THAT sort of intimacy I think even my mother considered aspirational. Jesus never said "Hey Mordant, how is it going today. Anything you need help with"? It was a one-sided conversation at all times. But this did not particularly perturb me, because I had heard that only crazy people hear voices in their heads and only the REALLY crazy ones have conversations with them. It only bothered me later, when some of my fellow believers made increasingly elaborate claims of hearing from god more directly, and in fact seemed to be falling over each other, topping each other's stories. It smelled fishy.
Anyway ... that was a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.
I Come to the Garden Alone was my Mom’s favorite hymn also. . I can still hear her singing it. She had a beautiful voice. She and her sister would sing it together in harmony.
I’ve never been one of those folks who claims to literally hear God talking to me. He does, however, communicate with me through His word. When I read the Scriptures, it is as though He is right there talking directly to me.
Even though I always believed in His existence, I can’t say the same for having a relationship with Him. That didn’t come until many years later. It began when I came to know God through Jesus. Reading about His life and His teachings showed me who God was.
Ever hear the saying, “Thou dost protest too much?” Well, no offense, mordant, but for someone who claims he doesn’t believe God exists, you seem to spend a lot of time trying to convince others that there is no God. I question why you bother. What do you care if someone believes God exists? If you’re happy with not believing, why waste your time on a Christian or any religious forum? Christians, at least, have a reason for being here. I’m just not clear why you’re here. Trying to understand.
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. I can still hear her singing it. She had a beautiful voice. She and her sister would sing it together in harmony. 
