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"If you are an unbeliever have you ever considered what will happen if you are wrong in your unbelief?" Dang, I guess I'd just die of old age....oh, wait....I'm gonna die anyway.
Instead of sitting in some stuffy church every Sunday, pretending to be someone I'm not, smiling at people I'd rather not acknowledge, I prefer to be out on the boat, enjoying life to the fullest. Personally, I have no need for the crutch the church provides, I have stood on my own feet since I quit going to church at 6 years of age.
It’s funny, but I see it very differently. I love being with the congregation I worship with. We are a relatively small group, and I know each of them well. They are like my family. There’s no one on earth I’d prefer to spend time with, except for members of my immediate family who live a long distance away. If my church family is a crutch, then I’d say I’m so grateful for having them. I believe they feel the same way about me. We are mutual crutches to one another. There’s nothing wrong in leaning on others when times are tough. I lost my husband last year to cancer. I can’t tell you how much comfort my church family brought and are still bringing to me. Anyway, to your point about churches being stuffy, all I can say is not all churches are like that.
Yesterday, I got home from worship around 2:30. I spent the rest of the day enjoying my life to the fullest, not fishing, but working in my garden. It’s possible to have both a church life and a life doing what we love to do.
I found your first sentence interesting. I got the impression that you don’t believe in any sort of afterlife? Am I reading you wrong?
Last edited by MissKate12; 05-02-2022 at 05:25 AM..
A former fundamentalist Christian poster who became an atheist in her forties (someone who hasn't posted in a while) asked a long-time friend a question along those lines, like, "If you are such a good friend, how will you enjoy heaven if you are convinced I will go to hell because I don't believe?" She said her friend laughed and said, "Oh I won't even remember you. God will wipe the memory of our nonbelieving friends and family from our souls."
Ah yes I had forgotten that argument. Seems pretty ironic (and heartless); Jesus calls people to stand in the truth, to turn the other cheek, to take care of others, to love your neighbour and even your enemies; yet in heaven allegedly no one will care about the endless suffering of others because that ‘truth’ will be hidden by some sort of lobotomy….
Psalm 99 (that is what that post was based on and why it was referenced) and psalm 2 have a lot of the same allusions
The Reign of the Lord's Anointed
Psa 2:1**Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
Psa 2:2**The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Psa 2:3**Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
Psa 2:4**He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Psa 2:5**Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Psa 2:6**Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7**I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8**Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9**Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Psa 2:10**Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Psa 2:11**Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12**Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
The Lord Our God Is Holy
Psa 99:1**The LORD reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth between the cherubims; let the earth be moved.
Psa 99:2**The LORD is great in Zion; and he is high above all the people.
Psa 99:3**Let them praise thy great and terrible name; for it is holy.
Psa 99:4**The king's strength also loveth judgment; thou dost establish equity, thou executest judgment and righteousness in Jacob.
Psa 99:5**Exalt ye the LORD our God, and worship at his footstool; for he is holy.
Psa 99:6**Moses and Aaron among his priests, and Samuel among them that call upon his name; they called upon the LORD, and he answered them.
Psa 99:7**He spake unto them in the cloudy pillar: they kept his testimonies, and the ordinance that he gave them.
Psa 99:8**Thou answeredst them, O LORD our God: thou wast a God that forgavest them, though thou tookest vengeance of their inventions.
Psa 99:9**Exalt the LORD our God, and worship at his holy hill; for the LORD our God is holy.
OK, that first sentence was simply a forthright observation, not something angry, but I think others also expressed what I did in their posts, so it's fine.
Actually, I found the responses to the OP to not have anger, though in all honesty, I didn’t get to read them all yet. I’m still wading through. I’m actually quite happy with what I’ve read to this point. I think the discussions have been very enlightening, for me anyway. It’s a topic I’ve never really explored, so I’m learning.
You're welcome and thank you for your kind response. I am not a very compelling writer so I won't go into my life story. It is really a story about how I went from feeling incompetent to feeling competent and being raised in a family that couldn't connect me to a world they weren't a part of even if that world was filled with other Christians. So they tried to convince me that I didn't want to be a part of it (shouldn't want to be a part of it) and they did it through religion.
In my sect even wanting to connect with that world was the very worst thing a person could be. That meant you were an apostate. I was a stranger in a strange land.
What you are proposing is Pascal's Wager, which is inherently flawed - it supposes there are only 2 outcomes:
1 - belief in God turns out to be false so there is "nothing to lose", as you say
2 - belief in God turns out to be true, so in that case you are saved
However there could be many other options.
For example what if it turns out that God only sends those with an honest heart to heaven - in that case those who chose to 'believe' just to be on the safe side could be condemning themselves because they weren't honest by "pretending to believe".
There are many other reasons this is not a good argument as others have posted - like treating salvation as "fire insurance", not being able to "choose belief" etc.
This discussion could be a good entry point to try to understand the truth of our own belief systems. Why do I believe what I believe? Why do I think what I think? Is it only because I'm scared of some eternal damnation that 'might' exist? What if there is eternal nothingness? What is the point of it all etc.
These are deep questions - believing one option or another just because it seems 'safe' has more consequences than you might realize. Hope that makes sense.
Thanks for your response. Its very interesting. One thing you should know. I didn’t write the OP as an argument. It was just a question. I admit I know nothing about Pascal’s Wager. I haven’t had many discussions with unbelievers, so I posted for reasons of simply wanting to understand better the way they think, what their experiences have been, etc.
Imho, it is perfectly normal to have a fear of God and eternal punishment, but I don’t believe it’s the driving force for being a Christian, at least it’s not for me anyway. For me, it is Jesus Himself, His life, His teachings. I’m very drawn to Him. I’ve spent a lot of time reading the gospel accounts , and I feel like I’ve gotten to know Him personally. When I read those words in red, I feel as if He’s talking directly to me. To some, He is a fictitious character. To me, He is very real, and I truly love Him.
Thanks for your response. Its very interesting. One thing you should know. I didn’t write the OP as an argument. It was just a question. I admit I know nothing about Pascal’s Wager. I haven’t had many discussions with unbelievers, so I posted for reasons of simply wanting to understand better the way they think, what their experiences have been, etc.
Imho, it is perfectly normal to have a fear of God and eternal punishment, but I don’t believe it’s the driving force for being a Christian, at least it’s not for me anyway. For me, it is Jesus Himself, His life, His teachings. I’m very drawn to Him. I’ve spent a lot of time reading the gospel accounts , and I feel like I’ve gotten to know Him personally. When I read those words in red, I feel as if He’s talking directly to me. To some, He is a fictitious character. To me, He is very real, and I truly love Him.
Hope this makes sense.
What do you make of the Bible verse that perfect love casts out fear? That was one of the ones I meditated on.
You are presupposing that 'afterlife' means some souls will be in endless torment.
You could ask 'what if there is an afterlife and you will suffer endlessly', which is implied by your question. Many people have studied and considered this, and then realized such a place could not be heaven. Living for eternity knowing many other souls are suffering for eternity - this cannot be called 'heaven'. Thus some people reject the entire idea and become atheists.
Some people believe God wipes our memories clean of those we loved who didn’t make it to heaven. I have not found a Scripture that says that, so I’m not convinced. Imho, if we are true believers, then our energies should be poured into our loved ones now, helping them to leave a life of sin and instead live a life for God.
I don’t think we comprehend the magnitude of evil. We don’t see sin in the same way God does. Isn’t it possible that once we have escaped the limitations of life in the flesh, that we will have a much clearer awareness of the heinousness of sin? Isn’t it possible that we may not see those who have rejected the Lord in an entirely different light from the way we thought of them on earth, even though we were connected to them closely in the flesh?
In the end, I prefer to trust the Lord to take care of how I will feel about loved ones who didn’t make it to heaven.
Actually, God will wipe every tear away from our eyes; and the glories of heaven will eventually take over in our consciousness so that earth and the former things will no longer be remembered.
It is not that God will wipe away the memory of our loved ones.
It is this,
Isa 65:16, That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.
Isa 65:17, For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18, But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19, And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
I don't believe that we will immediately forget what went on before;
It will be such that the glories of heaven so outweigh the trials of earth that the memory of it will fade away like a bad nightmare that we don't even remember the next day.
But there will be definite weeping for those whom we loved who didn't make it (Revelation 21:4a).
This is a major aspect of my motivation to win as many souls as possible to Jesus Christ.
If I can win all my family and extended family, friends and acquaintances, and those under the scope of my ministry, the only ones whom I will be weeping for will be people that I never really knew.
What do you make of the Bible verse that perfect love casts out fear? That was one of the ones I meditated on.
Very good question! Thanks for asking.
Here’s the verse you asked about.
“There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.” (1 John 4:18)
Imho, both unbelievers and believers who are not mature in their knowledge of God have varying degrees of fear. The true believer doesn’t have to fear eternal punishment. He has been made perfect/complete in love. The love of God is what drives him, not fear of Him. He has come to know God. He will approach the judgement seat with confidence.
I like the part that says “fear involves torment.” It’s so true. I can remember a time very early on in my Christian walk. I believed my sins were unforgivable. What a horrible feeling that was. But as I read and studied different characters in the Bible, I came to know God better and began to see just how forgiving He is. If God could forgive King Manasseh, who sacrificed his own children in fire, and David for setting up Bathsheba’s husband to be killed, He could forgive me.
What are your thoughts on the verse?
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