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Will you ever dispense with unsubstantiated claims?
You claim preterism is not biblical. Prove it.
You claim preterism holds no value for God's people. Prove it.
You claim preterism holds no value for God's word. Prove it.
You have made an awful lot of assumptions about me in the threads where we have disagreed. Despite what you may think, I'm am not sold on the preterist position. I have rotated between preterist, futurist, historicist and have come to learn there are valid claims from each perspective. I have studied all sides of this issue for years and have even engaged in e-mails with a very prominent preterist author (John Noe) after reading one of his books. He failed to address a couple of my questions and also failed to convince me on some of his assertions and when I pressed him on it, he stopped replying to my e-mails. So, I am by no means an advocate for the preterist position. I am a questioner of everything.
Convince me preterism is invalid, unbiblical, and blasphemous and I will stop calling you out on your unsubstantiated claims and get on board with your view.
Fighting for air... being a questioner of everything is a good thing.
Being able to rightly divide the word of truth between the Jew, the Gentile and the body of Christ will help you to interpret scripture.
Comparing Scripture with Scripture, will also help you to interpret scripture.
For a starter read my post above, God is not done with Israel. Also read Romans chapter 11.
The doctrine of Preterism says that God is all finished with Israel because of their sin. Now the church is spiritual Israel.
There are many many scriptures that show what's going to happen and who is going to be in the millennial kingdom. I don't have the time right now to go into all the scriptures. But if you're interested, we can delve into them later.
Fighting for air... being a questioner of everything is a good thing.
Being able to rightly divide the word of truth between the Jew, the Gentile and the body of Christ will help you to interpret scripture.
Comparing Scripture with Scripture, will also help you to interpret scripture.
For a starter read my post above, God is not done with Israel. Also read Romans chapter 11.
The doctrine of Preterism says that God is all finished with Israel because of their sin. Now the church is spiritual Israel.
There are many many scriptures that show what's going to happen and who is going to be in the millennial kingdom. I don't have the time right now to go into all the scriptures. But if you're interested, we can delve into them later.
Born again Jerry
Romans 11--"all Israel is saved" because a Deliverer came out of Zion and turned ungodliness from Jacob! When was that? To whom is the Deliverer a deliverer? To those who believe! This passage speaks of True Israel--not Israel in the flesh but the spiritual seed of Abraham. Paul stated this before in chapter 9 (verse 6). "They are not all Israel, who are of Israel." True Israel consists of all those who are circumcised in their hearts and not in their flesh--thus all Israel IS saved! "Israel" is made up of those who are circumcised with the "circumcision made without hands"
(Col. 2:11). True "circumcision" that makes one a member of "Israel" is that which is of the heart (Rom. 2:26).
National Israel with its temple, sacrifices, Mosaic law, priesthood, etc. was a type of that which was to come. Christ, the antitype, came and fulfilled the law, established an eternal priesthood and heavenly temple, did away with sacrifices through His perfect sacrifice, and created a new nation of redeemed people who would always belong to Him and never forsake Him. That is true Israel--all of true Israel is saved!
You and DOTL still fail to adress the questions posed and also fail to make a compelling argument for why preterism is unbiblical.
One statement does not a logical and valid arguement make.
A short lesson in logic and reasoned discourse: A valid argument is
contructed with a progression of two or more valid premises closely tied to each other which result in a valid conclusion. The first premise must be valid or the entire arguement fails. The subsequent premises are dependent on the initial one and must include a reference to the initial premise and progress from there.
Example argument: Premise #1 - "Racehorses are getting faster." Premise #2 - "Animals that are getting faster need more food."
Premise #3 - "Racehorses are anmals."
Conclusion - "Therefore, racehorses need more food."
Link between premises 1 and 2: "faster". Link between premises 2 and 3: "Animals". Link between premises 3 and 1: "racehorses".
In the example above, each of the premises can be verified as true or false with emipirical evidence. If they cannot, then you do not have an arguement that can be verified as valid and true. As well, you must comprehend the difference between an argument being valid and an argument being true. An arguement can be valid without being true but cannot be true without being valid.
You have yet to make a compelling and valid arguement because you ignore every challenge to your point of view and make claims which are unsupported.
So, I ask again: If you have a compelling case for preterism being evil, unChristian, unbiblical, blasphemous ....
... address the questions posed by preterist and myself instead of ignoring them, state your evidence and make your compelling case ... and when someone rebutts one of your assertions, address the issue instead of ignoring it.
I am completely open to wherever the truth leads us but refuse to buy into a position or assertion just because someone says so. I have prayed earnestly and consistently for spiritual clarification on these issues and have felt nothing other than an urge to keep biblical text in it's historical and cultural context. Experience has now shown me that when I do that, biblical text is simple, easy to understand and not mysterious at all.
The only other urging I've ever felt related to study of biblical text is that the cannon of scripture is not the word of God. Jesus is the word.
Now, I do not assert that I believe these urgings to be spiritual guidance. They could just as easily be my own perceptual leanings. Which is why I am open to other perspectives and choose to follow the instruction to "test all things"... even my own beliefs, perceptions, opinions and points of view. I have found I am wrong far more often than I am right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerrydb
Fighting for air... being a questioner of everything is a good thing.
Being able to rightly divide the word of truth between the Jew, the Gentile and the body of Christ will help you to interpret scripture.
Comparing Scripture with Scripture, will also help you to interpret scripture.
For a starter read my post above, God is not done with Israel. Also read Romans chapter 11.
The doctrine of Preterism says that God is all finished with Israel because of their sin. Now the church is spiritual Israel.
There are many many scriptures that show what's going to happen and who is going to be in the millennial kingdom. I don't have the time right now to go into all the scriptures. But if you're interested, we can delve into them later.
Born again Jerry
Last edited by Fighting For Air; 09-19-2008 at 12:17 PM..
You and DOTL still fail to adress the questions posed and also fail to make a compelling argument for why preterism is unbiblical.
One statement does not a logical and valid arguement make.
A short lesson in logic and reasoned discourse: A valid argument is
contructed with a progression of two or more valid premises closely tied to each other which result in a valid conclusion. The first premise must be valid or the entire arguement fails. The subsequent premises are dependent on the initial one and must include a reference to the initial premise and progress from there.
Example argument: Premise #1 - "Racehorses are getting faster." Premise #2 - "Animals that are getting faster need more food."
Premise #3 - "Racehorses are anmals."
Conclusion - "Therefore, racehorses need more food."
Link between premises 1 and 2: "faster". Link between premises 2 and 3: "Animals". Link between premises 3 and 1: "racehorses".
In the example above, each of the premises can be verified as true or false with emipirical evidence. If they cannot, then you do not have an arguement that can be verified as valid and true. As well, you must comprehend the difference between an argument being valid and an argument being true. An arguement can be valid without being true but cannot be true without being valid.
You have yet to make a compelling and valid arguement because you ignore every challenge to your point of view and make claims which are unsupported.
So, I ask again: If you have a compelling case for preterism being evil, unChristian, unbiblical, blasphemous ....
... address the questions posed by preterist and myself instead of ignoring them, state your evidence and make your compelling case ... and when someone rebutts one of your assertions, address the issue instead of ignoring it.
FFA, we have all addressed this in other threads. It is up to you to go back and read those threads. All we can do is lay it out with scripture that is interpreted scripture for scripture and through the Holy Spirit's guidance. It is up to you to pray to God to receive the guidance you need from the Holy Spirit in making up your mind as to what the truth is.
I'm done laying it all out. If the truth still cannot be discerned by some, then the truth is not being sought and prayed for. The intention of this thread was to put it to rest and hopefully put an end to the constant battering of others who don't agree with preterism. It's old, and everyone is tired of it.
This thread is open for discussion between preterists and whoever else wants to participate. But you're not going to find Christians on this board who are willing to engage in it anymore who hold the belief in Jesus' own promises to return. There are plenty who have different ideas about this and that having to do with when and how, but the common thread is that we believe that Jesus Christ is Savior, He died on the Cross, He arose from the dead and He will be returning a 2nd time, and that it has not happened yet.
There is no commonality of born-again believers, what Christ taught, and preterism. That's why we all have a BIG problem with it. Humble yourself before the Lord and allow the Holy Spirit to lead you when reading the scriptures. That is the only way to find your truth, God's truth, THE truth.
There is no commonality of born-again believers, what Christ taught, and preterism. That's why we all have a BIG problem with it. Humble yourself before the Lord and allow the Holy Spirit to lead you when reading the scriptures. That is the only way to find your truth, God's truth, THE truth.
OK .. I'll bite ... you make this claim. Now, defend it ...make your case instead of just an empty assertion. When you make a compelling case, I will rebut. I could do that now, but since you are the one making the assertion, the burden of proof is on you.
Besides, the Olivet discourse has already been quoted a dozen times in other threads and is continually ignored so once you make an compellng argument, I will provide a fresh rebuttal for you to address that does not repeat what has already been posted in other threads.
Secondly ... not every born again believer and follower of Christ is a futurist. The scope of your perspective is very, very narrow. There are thousands upon thousands ... potentially millions... of spirit-filled believers all around the world that lean towards the preterist perspective. There are also thousands and thousands or those who lean towards the historicist perspective. Are you claiming all of these poeple are not true Chrsitians?
Thirdly ... I have gone all through the other threads and have found the same thing. You never directly address challenges to your point of view. You skirt the issue with the skill of a seasoned politician. Here, you and preterist John Noe are kindred spirits. When pressed on an issue, you and he fail to deliver.
It reminds me of the abortion debate. Both sides make their own cases and arguments and never address the validity or invalidity of the argument coming from the other side.
Last edited by Fighting For Air; 09-19-2008 at 12:48 PM..
FFA, we have all addressed this in other threads. It is up to you to go back and read those threads. All we can do is lay it out with scripture that is interpreted scripture for scripture and through the Holy Spirit's guidance. It is up to you to pray to God to receive the guidance you need from the Holy Spirit in making up your mind as to what the truth is.
I'm done laying it all out. If the truth still cannot be discerned by some, then the truth is not being sought and prayed for. The intention of this thread was to put it to rest and hopefully put an end to the constant battering of others who don't agree with preterism. It's old, and everyone is tired of it.
This thread is open for discussion between preterists and whoever else wants to participate. But you're not going to find Christians on this board who are willing to engage in it anymore who hold the belief in Jesus' own promises to return. There are plenty who have different ideas about this and that having to do with when and how, but the common thread is that we believe that Jesus Christ is Savior, He died on the Cross, He arose from the dead and He will be returning a 2nd time, and that it has not happened yet.
There is no commonality of born-again believers, what Christ taught, and preterism. That's why we all have a BIG problem with it. Humble yourself before the Lord and allow the Holy Spirit to lead you when reading the scriptures. That is the only way to find your truth, God's truth, THE truth.
The reason I and people like Fighting for Air keep these conversations going is because you do NOT address the issues. You think you have, but you haven't. How many times have I asked what "shortly" and "at hand" mean in 1 Peter 4:7; James 5:8, Revelation 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10)? And how many times have you and others simply disregard them with an lame appeal to 2 Peter 3? Why does Jesus always use the expression "this generation" to mean His contemporaries (20 times!), but then suddenly changes its meaning in Matthew 24:34 (according to dispensationalists)? Why, DOTL?
What do time words mean, DOTL? You and other futurists have no answer for this. The entire Book of Revelation is bookended between these time statements. That is significant. Yet when preterists take them at their face value, they are accused of twisting the Scriptures! Either we are too literal or we are not literal enough. It seems there is no pleasing dispensationalists--not that that is our goal anyway!
Frankly, DOTL, I have read your posts on these issues and I find them to be nothing more than a rehashing of dispensationalist teachings which are not based on sound biblical interpretation. I further believe that much of what you believe to be biblical is really not found in the Scriptures at all. Fighting for Air and I and others like us simply wish that you would clearly expound the Scriptures to present your ideas and not just post a verse here and there that SEEMS to support your contentions. What we get instead our verses presented without the contexts that often give the verse a meaning different from how you are using it! Do YOU not feel that perhaps YOU need to humble YOURSELF and accept the clear teachings of the time words found in the Scriptures regardless of what such an approach might do to your precious and erroneous end-times scenario? Why is it only you and those like you who are led by the Spirit when they study the Word? Is that not perhaps somewhat arrogant on your part?
I am still waiting for more of those many verses that blow preterism out of the biblical waters!
Humble yourself before the Lord and allow the Holy Spirit to lead you when reading the scriptures. That is the only way to find your truth, God's truth, THE truth.
I do try to do this, but as with many things I do falter from time to time just like we all do.
However, I don't think you really want me to humble myself before the lord and find his truth.
From your posts, you appear to be expecting me to humble myself before you and come to your truth.
Again, there are thousands and millions of people in the world like me. Yes, there probably far more Christians who are die hard futurists than there are who question the validity of that position. That is where I think the problem lies. Too many people believe it only because that's all they've ever been exposed to, all they've studied, and all they "want" to believe.
Is the belief driving the interpretation or is the evidence shaping the belief?
Often, religious dogma is very much the tail wagging the dog.
Has anyone taken into account the roots of the dispensationalist view?
Here are three people to research and study:
John Nelson Darby, (considered to be the father of Dispensationalism)
Cyrus Scofield, (Scofield Reference Bible: the leading bible used by American Evangelicals)
Hal Lindsey, (considered the most influential contemporary dispensationalist)
These men are mostly responsible for the widespread belief in a futuristic "earthly" kingdom. "My kingdom is not of this world" John 18:36
This view is also aligned with Zionist beliefs. Are we to align ourselves with those who deny Christ Jesus?
Darby believed the Lord revealed this interpretation to him personally.
Scofield was influenced and financed by Samuel Untermeyer, a talmudist jew (ie., Pharisee - "those who call themselves Jews but who are not" Rev. 2:9) tied with the Zionist world bankers. (Read Benjamin Freedman's works)
Hal Lindsey encourages evangelicals to support the Zionist State of Isreal and has sprouted the likes of the modern "televangelists".
Research the lavish lifestyles of these "godly" people on TBN or other networks. All are 501 (c) (3) "churches" which means they sought "permission" from the federal government to operate their "non-profit" "business". Sounds like these people have given themselves as slaves to the State. We cannot serve two masters. Matt. 6:24. Any government creation, like these "churches", are subject to the federal government and all its rules and regulations. Do you think the federal government is in line with the Divine Word of our Father in Heaven? How can we be loyal to both? We cannot, the scriptures tell us so.
Are these the people we want to follow?
Are these the beliefs we want to hold as true?
Should we ask any government's permission to spread God's word?
Should we listen to those that "preach the word" for profit?
Research and study the roots of what you claim to be true. If the truth is your honest and genuine desire, then your prayer will be answered.
However, I don't think you really want me to humble myself before the lord and find his truth.
Of course I do, FFA. That's all I want for anyone. It's not about my dispensational belief. It's about people coming to know Christ and being saved. What they believe beyond that needs to come from the Bible and the Holy Spirit. And a lot of what I see here on this board is not in alignment with the Word of God. But that doesn't mean I think someone is going to hell because they don't believe like I do.
Quote:
From your posts, you appear to be expecting me to humble myself before you and come to your truth.
That's just silly. I had never even heard of preterism before I came to this board. The problem I have with it is that the whole concept goes against what Jesus taught. It takes away the hope that Jesus gave and cancels out His death on the cross. Calling Jesus a liar is being in danger of hellfire. I am concerned with the souls of preterists, but I cannot say for sure if this belief will send them to hell. I just know it's dangerous. It appears to me that the preterist teaching is all about being right, about PRIDE. Not about the Word of God, or Jesus' teachings. I want people to humble themselves before God and ask to be shown the truth, rather than being beligerant and prideful, thinking they know it all when they haven't even sought God's assistance in the matter.
I put all the stuff I believe out there because I want to give people other perspectives. There are so many false teachings these days, and it's my duty to share what God has shown me to be the truth. There is absolutely no way to categorize me....I am not a futurist, dispensationalist, pre-millenialist or whatever you want to call people who believe like I do. I am a believer in Jesus Christ, and I have been led by the Holy Spirit in what I believe through the scriptures. Anything that I believe is not going to send me to hell, or is it going to influence anyone else to believe what I believe and send them to hell. The worst that can happen is that I may be wrong in part of what I believe.
Nothing I believe puts me or anyone else in danger of hellfire, because it's all based on the scriptures and Jesus' own words and teachings. You can't go wrong with that. Where someone can go wrong is in prideful arrogance in not seeking God's face and humbling themselves. Taking the Word of God out of context to say what they want it to say, and calling Jesus a liar. That IS putting oneself in the path of judgment by hellfire.
I see no expression of love in any preterist on this board. They have been belittling and badgering, and never any mention of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross and how important that is. There is no demonstration of tolerance, no patience, no love. THAT, IS NOT of Christ. My problems with preterism are simple. It is man-made hogwash that goes against everything the Bible teaches. It has nothing to do with Christ, the love of Christ, or being a Christian. I definitely get hot under the collar when someone's own personal theology is masquerading as Christianity, when it has nothing to do with Jesus Christ. You betcha.
Say what you want, do what you will, read te che lele instead of your Bible, but none of it will get you to God the Father except Jesus Christ.
I see no expression of love in any preterist on this board. They have been belittling and badgering, and never any mention of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross and how important that is. There is no demonstration of tolerance, no patience, no love. THAT, IS NOT of Christ.
If true (and I'm not saying it is) I still don't see how this addresses timeline issues.
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