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Has anyone taken into account the roots of the dispensationalist view?
Here are three people to research and study:
John Nelson Darby, (considered to be the father of Dispensationalism)
Cyrus Scofield, (Scofield Reference Bible: the leading bible used by American Evangelicals)
Hal Lindsey, (considered the most influential contemporary dispensationalist)
These men are mostly responsible for the widespread belief in a futuristic "earthly" kingdom. "My kingdom is not of this world" John 18:36
This view is also aligned with Zionist beliefs. Are we to align ourselves with those who deny Christ Jesus?
Darby believed the Lord revealed this interpretation to him personally.
Scofield was influenced and financed by Samuel Untermeyer, a talmudist jew (ie., Pharisee - "those who call themselves Jews but who are not" Rev. 2:9) tied with the Zionist world bankers. (Read Benjamin Freedman's works)
Hal Lindsey encourages evangelicals to support the Zionist State of Isreal and has sprouted the likes of the modern "televangelists".
Research the lavish lifestyles of these "godly" people on TBN or other networks. All are 501 (c) (3) "churches" which means they sought "permission" from the federal government to operate their "non-profit" "business". Sounds like these people have given themselves as slaves to the State. We cannot serve two masters. Matt. 6:24. Any government creation, like these "churches", are subject to the federal government and all its rules and regulations. Do you think the federal government is in line with the Divine Word of our Father in Heaven? How can we be loyal to both? We cannot, the scriptures tell us so.
Are these the people we want to follow?
Are these the beliefs we want to hold as true?
Should we ask any government's permission to spread God's word?
Should we listen to those that "preach the word" for profit?
Research and study the roots of what you claim to be true. If the truth is your honest and genuine desire, then your prayer will be answered.
I didn't miss it. I just don't agree with it, as it is slanted in it's preterist view and content. The truth of the scriptures goes back to the early church fathers and theologians. There were no "labels" to attach to the only way to understand the Bible. It is what it is. Calling it millenialism doesn't mean it's some kind of newfound teaching...it's the ONLY teaching since the beginning. Unlike the preterist view that requires a label and was invented to take the focus off of sinful, corrupt people in the middle ages. But again, I said all of this in the OP.
I've made myself very clear about not debating this, the OP speaks for itself, this is not about what you call a millenialist view....it's about the truth. The truth is that Jesus is Savior, and He promised to return. To say otherwise is calling Jesus a liar. Plain and simple!
And in case anyone missed IT................
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Scriptures That Completely Blow Preterism out of the Biblical Waters
This has needed to be seriously addressed for some time now on this board, and God revealed to me the scriptures to do just that.
I can feel God's utter disgust at the flagrant misrepresentation of His Word by way of this teaching. Preterism is the spiritualization of scriptures that then become anything that preterists want it to mean. This is essentially playing God.
The force-feeding and sheer argumentative nature of preterism alone makes it pretty obvious that it's incorrect. But here are some facts and scriptures that PROVE it's wrong.
Preterism insists that all Biblical prophecy, even Revelation, was fulfilled in 70 AD and that none of it is relevant for today's use. That is a fallacy created and perpetuated in the middle ages, to take away the focus from the terrible things that they were guilty of in that time period, and they KNEW they were guilty of, and did not want to be held accountable for. What better way to do that than to say that the Bible didn't apply to them? It's manipulating God's Word to suit one's own purposes at it's very worst.
Also, it has been proven and confirmed by the early church fathers that the book of Revelation was written AFTER 70 AD, in 95 AD!! If Revelation was meant for the 70 AD generation, then why was it written after it supposedly had already taken place? Exactly.
The following scripture PROVES beyond a shadow of a doubt that the preterist belief is completely wrong and needs to go back where it came from; the middle ages.
2 Thessalonians, Chapter 2...THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come." "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day WILL NOT come, UNTIL the rebellion occurs and THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS IS REVEALED, the man doomed to destruction."
Alright. Let me just pause here for a minute. Do you see and understand what is being said here, plain as day? "Jesus WILL NOT return (2nd coming) UNTIL "The Man of Lawlessness"......who is the "AntiChrist"......IS REVEALED!!!! Not only does this scripture PROVE that Jesus has not come because we KNOW that the AntiChrist has not been revealed, it also proves that the AntiChrist is a "MAN"!!! Singularly a man, one person. Yes, there is the "spirit" of the AntiChrist that is among us right now. But this scripture is proof positive that Jesus has not returned and that the AntiChrist is a man that is still to come.
NONE OF IT HAS HAPPENED. The above IS THE PROOF.
Continuing on with Chapter 2: "He (the AntiChrist) will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."
When exactly did the above happen? It hasn't!!
"Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. FOR THE SECRET POWER OF LAWLESSNESS IS ALREADY AT WORK; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way." "And then the lawless ONE will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy BY THE SPLENDOR OF HIS (Jesus) COMING!!!!!!
Once again, the scripture states PLAINLY that the AntiChrist is ONE, one MAN, that will be destroyed WHEN JESUS RETURNS!!
I won't quote the rest of Chapter 2, but I would suggest to read it. Those who are left behind after the Rapture and still refuse to believe and live for God will receive a powerful "delusion" that will blind them into believing the lies of the AntiChrist.
Teachings such as preterism are not just a matter of different interpretation. It's way more serious than that, and it is the "spirit" of the AntiChrist at work that tricks and fools people into believing such blasphemous things.
Not only is it dangerous because it's completely false, it's dangerous because it completely denies that Jesus is the Savior who died for us on the Cross for our wretched selves and sins, but it calls Jesus a liar because it voids, nullifies and robs the Church of the blessed Hope that He most assuredly promised to us.
This is serious stuff, people. Please, please, please repent NOW and be ready to meet the Lord at anytime. Don't believe the lies and deceit of false teachings and "new age" deception.
There is great HOPE in the Word of God which is the Bible, and that's exactly how it should be taught and understood.
I didn't miss it. I just don't agree with it, as it is slanted in it's preterist view and content. The truth of the scriptures goes back to the early church fathers and theologians. There were no "labels" to attach to the only way to understand the Bible. It is what it is. Calling it millenialism doesn't mean it's some kind of newfound teaching...it's the ONLY teaching since the beginning. Unlike the preterist view that requires a label and was invented to take the focus off of sinful, corrupt people in the middle ages. But again, I said all of this in the OP.
I've made myself very clear about not debating this, the OP speaks for itself, this is not about what you call a millenialist view....it's about the truth. The truth is that Jesus is Savior, and He promised to return. To say otherwise is calling Jesus a liar. Plain and simple!
And in case anyone missed IT................
I never claimed to have a "preterist" view nor did I "label" any view as millenialism. I simply suggested that those who adhere to "dispensationalism" should diligently research and study those who propagated this belief. If truth is what one seeks, than any discussion on the topic should be welcomed. If one believes his or her view of the Devine Word of our Father in Heaven is accurate, than a challenge is more proof for one's view, since any false challenge strengthens the position of the one who proclaims the infallible truth. However, it is clear that no time, research or study was involved in your response because you would rather cling to what is comfortable and widely accepted, instead of having the noble disposition of the Bereans in Paul's time. The Bereans did not hold fast to widely accepted traditions or customs, they listened to all teachings with an open mind, and a hope of hearing from God. They listened, took notes, researched and studied the scriptures to verify that Paul's "radical" teachings were consistent with the Word of God. They were not chastised or ridiculed for their conduct, rather thay were exhalted and respected for their unwavering desire and yearning for the truth.
You say you didn't miss it, you just don't agree with it. Which part don't you agree with?
The "early church theologians" you mention who adhered to the futurist view have also been the ones who have been falsley predicting the end of the world countless times for almost 2000 years.
This view you hold as truth is also the view of Talmudist Jews and Zionists as evidenced by the support of the likes of John Hagee, Pat Robertson, Tim LaHay, Hal Lindsay and probably the entire televangelist community.
Do you disagree with that? If you don't then you align yourself with the same anti-christ Pharisees of Jesus' day who he called the "Synagogue of Satan".
If the Christ-denying Talmudist Jews and Zionists agree with the dispensationalist interpretation of future events, then where does that lead the follower of Christ Jesus?
If Jesus has already returned, the Catholic Church would know about it. And yet every Sunday, I recite that Jesus will come back to judge the living and the dead. You would think if Jesus had returned, of which is supposed to be announced to the world with trumpets, that someone in the Early Church would have known about it. Since it was the Catholics who compiled the Bible in the late fourth century, I am going to take their word on it. That is, we are still looking forward to Jesus's return.
Peace be with you all and lighten up about the end of days. Stay out of trouble and you will be just fine.
DOTL...get rid of Israel, you get rid of end Times.
Here is scripture that shows God is not done with Israel.
Jeremiah31 31-37 behold, the days come, said the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt;which my covenant they break, although I was an husband unto them,said the Lord:but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;after those days,said the Lord,I will put my law in their inward parts,and write it in their hearts;and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more, every man his neighbor,and every man his brother,saying,know the Lord:for they shall all know me,from the least of them onto the greatest of them,said the Lord for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Thus saith the Lord which giveth the sun for a light and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night,which divides the sea when the waves thereof roar;the Lord of hosts is his name:if those ordinances depart from before me,said the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the Lord;if heaven above can be measured,and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done,saith the Lord.
There are many prophecies that deal with Israel in the end Times such as in the tribulation and in the millennial kingdom. When Jesus was preaching about the gospel of the kingdom he was preaching about a literal kingdom.
He was to be King over this kingdom for 1000 years many scriptures to prove this.
This doctrine wants to do away with the nation of Israel.
Born again Jerry
Jeremiah31 31-37 behold, the days come, said the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers...
Tough questions for you Born again Jerry. What is the New Covenant? Do we have it today? Has it been around for a while? Acording to you we do not have the "New Covenant" yet you claim to be born again.
Matthew 26:28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Have your "sins" been removed, Born again Jerry?
Many can't quite comprehend that salvation had come. To the Jew first, and then the Gentile. Also, to the dead in the grave or hades. This is what David was waiting for, his hope, in Acts 2:23-31.
Just because the Jews were Abraham's seed, was no guarantee.
Romans 9:7 nor [are they] all children because they are the seed of Abraham;...
You had to belong to Christ.
Galatians 3:29 And if you [are] Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Colossians 3:11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave [nor] free, but Christ [is] all and in all.
Isaiah 65:15, "And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:"
Matthew 21:43, "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
The above was fulfilled in 70 AD, when the Jews were slayed, the temple burned down, and the Kingdom of God was taken from the Jews and given to all who believe in Christ.
Hebrews 8:8,13 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- In that He says, "A new [covenant,"] He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Jerry, when were the days coming for a new covenant for the house of Israel? Does Judah exists today? Why was not the covenant established already, perhaps say at Christ's crucifixion? Now, what is becoming obsolete, and old, and when is it to vanish? When was the book of Hebrew written?
I look very forward to your answers.
Quote:
He was to be King over this kingdom for 1000 years many scriptures to prove this.
Also you will have to prove your above statement with scripture. As I have proven otherwise. Below. When the word "thousand" is used in scripture, is it literal?
Revelation 20:4 says, "...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." It's not Christ that reigns 1000 years. Notice that it is the souls that were beheaded for the witness of Christ and the word of God, that reigned with Christ. It is not you. There is no reign on earth mentioned here, or Christ on Earth.
Revelation 6:9-11 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both [the number of] their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they [were,] was completed.
If Jesus has already returned, the Catholic Church would know about it. And yet every Sunday, I recite that Jesus will come back to judge the living and the dead. You would think if Jesus had returned, of which is supposed to be announced to the world with trumpets, that someone in the Early Church would have known about it. Since it was the Catholics who compiled the Bible in the late fourth century, I am going to take their word on it. That is, we are still looking forward to Jesus's return.
Peace be with you all and lighten up about the end of days. Stay out of trouble and you will be just fine.
What end of days, juj? And why are you taking the teachings of men over the teachings of the Bible?
When Paul was before Felix, the governor, he said "There is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked" (Acts 24:15). He also spoke of "righteousness, self-control and the judgment about to come" (Acts 24:25). When addressing the Athenians, Paul said, "He [God] has fixed a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness" (Acts 17:31). If He was about to judge the wicked and the righteous in Paul's day, why do so many still wait for a coming judgment?
It is an erroneous teaching that judgment is to occur at some end of time event when all people who have ever lived stand before God. Christ brought judgment at His return in A. D. 70--the final eternal destination of all was from that time decided--the wicked would be forever separated from Him and the righteous (born again) would forever be with Him!
It is a dangerous thing to be so content to follow the teachings of a church rather than the teachings of the Bible. The Scriptures were given to each of us to diligently study so that we are not led astray by false doctrine. Are you a student of God's Word?
Let me make this clear, twin.spin. Preterists DO NOT EVER accuse futurists of being unbelievers. We would not be the ones with that sign above us. It is futurists who call preterists heretics and question their salvation!
Furthermore, I have NEVER said that DOTL or anyone has no right to express an opinion. My problem has always been that too often it is just an opinion. If I have done anything, I have sought to encourage people to know WHY they believe WHAT they believe.
Twin.spin--DOTL is the one who began this thread--even boldly entitling it "Scriptures that completely blow preterism out of the biblical waters." I have merely demanded that she present them in their context and in a format that represents her personal, hermeneutically sound study!
I cannot believe that you are accusing preterists of trying to stifle the rights of futurists to express their views. The reverse is clearly the case here. I am accused of twisting the Scriptures when, in fact, I often merely post the words of Jesus or of one of the apostles and ask others what they meant by them! I am accused of taking things out of context when, in fact, I spend a great deal of time trying to ascertain the contexts of EVERY passage I present. I am sorry, but I do not see that same approach by DOTL. Yet she accuses me of taking things out of context. She does not deal with the biblical questions people raise but simply comes back with her beliefs. If we are not going to seriously look at the Word in its context and through sound hermeneutical principles, then we are left with simple opinions.
DOTL seems to want to open a thread and then close it down when people disagree with her and she cannot defend herself. She has done this before. Perhaps YOU have some of those Scriptures that COMPLETELY blow preterism out of the biblical waters? Perhaps YOU could present them in their CONTEXT so that we preterists could be enlightened from our errors!
Preterist
Preterist,
Do you not have any humor? The sign over the door is a common inter-denominational joke.....
Are you the offical preterist spoke person? If you would read in CONTEXT, I was just accusing you (using your words), not all preterists. But whom am I to tell you about CONTEXT
As far as putting the challange to me, presenting scripture that could enlighten you.
There is none. You and I don't belief in the same Jesus. You deny the physical ressurection of the dead...just like "the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection" Your Jesus is dead, mine is alive.
Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God
But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
The living Jesus who will raise all, that I believe in, will prove it to you, either at your death, and\or at world ends.
And that my friend is the fundemental differance between us and why you find little takers in your posts.
Last edited by twin.spin; 09-23-2008 at 09:14 AM..
What end of days, juj? And why are you taking the teachings of men over the teachings of the Bible?
When Paul was before Felix, the governor, he said "There is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked" (Acts 24:15). He also spoke of "righteousness, self-control and the judgment about to come" (Acts 24:25). When addressing the Athenians, Paul said, "He [God] has fixed a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness" (Acts 17:31). If He was about to judge the wicked and the righteous in Paul's day, why do so many still wait for a coming judgment?
It is an erroneous teaching that judgment is to occur at some end of time event when all people who have ever lived stand before God. Christ brought judgment at His return in A. D. 70--the final eternal destination of all was from that time decided--the wicked would be forever separated from Him and the righteous (born again) would forever be with Him!
It is a dangerous thing to be so content to follow the teachings of a church rather than the teachings of the Bible. The Scriptures were given to each of us to diligently study so that we are not led astray by false doctrine. Are you a student of God's Word?
Preterist
Why is it you use the Bible against the very organization that put Holy Scripture together almost 400 years after Jesus's death. While the Bible is a source of Devine Revelation, it is not the only source. The Bible says it's useful, but does not declare in any form that it is the sole source of truth and moral teaching. However, it does say that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth in 1 Timoth 3:15.
Paul writes in 2 Thessalonians 2:14-17:
14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. 16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace,
17 comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.
Notice verse 15. It clearly states that Paul wishes his audience to hold to the traditions which were taught by us either by mouth or by letter. So there are traditions that were taught by word of mouth that were not written down and hence, never made it to the Bible. In addition, the last chapter of John clearly states that not everything that Jesus said or did was recorded in the Bible.
Sola Scriptura is a false premise. You, my brother, not only believe in an incomplete version of Devine Revelation, which ignores Sacred Tradition, but you also stand only on your own intrepretation without any authority to come to your conclusions.
Preterist, the most important quality of being a good Christian, bar none, is humility, which, sad to say, you seem devoid of.
Preterist, the most important quality of being a good Christian, bar none, is humility, which, sad to say, you seem devoid of.
Juj ... it's not about humility. It's about futurists never really addressing the biblical problems with their point of view - never addressing the questions or challenges - never taking a good look at the hundreds of years of futurist propaganda that still has not yet produced the "great tribulation" and "rapture" that was supposed to happen in the 1500s ... wait a tic ... maybe that's the 1600s ... nope ... didn't happen then either .... how about the 1700s ... 1900s? ... 1980s? ... 1990s? ... Y2K?
If Jack Van Impe and Hal Lindsey are your guides, you are certain to keep holding your breath for the end that never comes.
If the futurist position is so firmly entrenched in sound biblical exegesis, all I ask is for someone to make a compelling case.
As I've stated many times, I'll go wherever the truth leads me. You cannot make a compelling case for futurism be dodging questions and challenges and taking biblical passages out of their historical, textual, and cultural context.
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New covenant
