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Can you please explain what you mean by this a bit. Do you believe this ressurection of the dead as written in the bible has already occured, however, it was not truly a resurrection but a resuscitation of sorts because only Christ was truly resurrected and the difference which may exist to you is that being raised is different from being resurrected in as much as it may be a resuscitation instead of a resurrection.
Sorry, just want to make sure I understand what you are trying to say with this part before I give a comment.
No, mari4him, I am not saying that at all! I am saying that those who point to the "resuscitation" of bodies (e.g. Lazarus) as proofs of resurrection are calling resuscitations resurrections!
I was further saying that we must not push the similarities of Christ's body coming out of the tomb to the point that we teach that our bodies must also come out of the grave. His body was incorruptible (not able to decay) and was to never see corruption. The Scriptures clearly declare that we were created natural bodies of the dust of the earth and that, as such, those bodies return to the earth. My point is that the similarities we should see between Christ's resurrection body is that it was spiritual and able to manifest itself physically. We, too, will have a spiritual body that can manifest itself physically. But it will also be so much more than that for even the angels could do that and we are of more value than the angels.
I think we do miss the unfathomable nature our resurrection bodies will have when we tie them eternally to the physical. Our earthen bodies are of this world--God's kingdom is not. Why should we then want to take that which encumbers and restricts in this world and take it into the next?
"The first man is of the earth, earthy," Paul taught (1 Cor. 15:47). We bear the image of that earthy man, but we shall bear the image of the heavenly (verse 48). First there is that which is natural, then there is that which is spiritual. "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body" (verse 44). "It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in GLORY. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in POWER" (verse 43). We do not attach the heavenly to the earthly. We do not attach glory to dishonor. God gives us a body apart from our earthly body "that pleases Him" (verse 38).
In summary, we do not need these physical, earthly bodies in the glory that awaits us. That does not in any way deny the reality of the resurrection; it simply makes it far more glorious!
Regarding all this talk about the resurrection ... it starts to get sticky on both sides of this issue when you consider Matthew 27:45-53
51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
I could see the contention that they were raised back to life only to die again. I've also heard it argued that these were the first-fruits of the ressurection. And that was from a notable preterist source (John Noe).
Not quite. Check out this post:
and this one: //www.city-data.com/forum/4448378-post33.html
for Biblical examples showing that we cannot use these words "shortly" "near" "at hand" etc. to make such a statement. We must have proof some other way. We cannot make any conclusions of when or if prophecy has been fulfilled based on such words. They tell us nothing.
You and the poster took "the day of the Lord" out of context. It is because of your lack of biblical knowledge, and a forced desire to "twist" the scripture to validate your "interpretation" of what you think the scripture should mean. All those prophesies came to being shortly after the time it was written.
Quote:
twin.spin Zephaniah 1:14
[ The Great Day of the Lord ] "The great day of the LORD is near— near and coming quickly. Listen! The cry on the day of the LORD will be bitter, the shouting of the warrior there.
Where is the valley of Jehoshaphat?
Why did Joel clearly say "NEAR" when Peter said it was fulfilled 780 years later?
The day [Great day] of the Lord spoken of by the prophets did not take place in 70 AD.......You are your own self fulfilling prophet.
NEWS FOR YOU The destruction of the FIRST temple is what is being stated here. NOT THE SECOND Do the research.
Quote:
quote:Hiram
In scripture, “the day of the Lord†has never, ever ever ever, never referred to a physical, literal return of the Lord. “The day of the Lord†always referred to the Lord's judgment upon either a nation of men or city. It refers to a destruction from God Almighty.
Lets look at Zephaniah. If you think that Zephaniah was talking about some 2000 years + after the birth of Christ then you are sadly mistaken.
Zephaniah 1:1 The word of the LORD which came to Zephaniah the son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of Hezekiah, in the days of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah.
So, we can see that by the above, Zephaniah was around during the days of Josiah.
2 Chron 34:1 Josiah [was] eight years old when he became king, and he reigned thirty-one years in Jerusalem.
More evidence, Josiah was eight when he became king, his kingship lasted 31 years for a total of 39, a generation
2 Kings 23:34 Then Pharaoh Necho made Eliakim the son of Josiah king in place of his father Josiah, and changed his name to Jehoiakim. And [Pharaoh] took Jehoahaz and went to Egypt, and he died there.
2 Kings 23:36 Jehoiakim [was] twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. His mother's name [was] Zebudah the daughter of Pedaiah of Rumah.
Jehoiakim became king after his father Josiah.
Daniel 1:1-2 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with some of the articles of the house of God, which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the articles into the treasure house of his god.
As we can see in the above from the book of Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, besieged and defeated Jerusalem. "And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand"
This is how the Lord's judgment came ("The day of the Lord") upon a nation. It was never a physical appearance by God. It was a judgement that the Jews understood.
Zephaniah 1:4,7,14-15 "I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem…for the day of the LORD is at hand: …The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD:…That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness."
This was referring to the destruction of Jerusalem, and this was fulfilled in 586 BC.
Also for more evidence of who was who and where, please look here at:
Matthew 1:10-11 Hezekiah begot Manasseh, Manasseh begot Amon, and Amon begot Josiah. Josiah begot Jeconiah and his brothers about the time they were carried away to Babylon.
The above means that Josiah had Jeconiah and his brothers about the time of the first destruction of Jerusalem. Please read once again Zephaniah 1:1
Your obscure vision of interpreting scripture, has led you into the false accusations against Preterist, also has undermine your knowledge of the term "Day of the Lord". You are also mistaken on your other evidences that you presented on your analysis of the term "day of the Lord", from Old Testament Prophets. Each one is a different "judgement", that we can only understand by reading and "diligent" study.
Notice the word Jerusalem and Juda is used in the context. I challenge you to try and read Zephaniah. Perhaps a door will somehow open for you.
You and the poster took "the day of the Lord" out of context. It is because of your lack of biblical knowledge, and a forced desire to "twist" the scripture to validate your "interpretation" of what you think the scripture should mean. All those prophesies came to being shortly after the time it was written.
NEWS FOR YOU The destruction of the FIRST temple is what is being stated here. NOT THE SECOND Do the research.
Notice the word Jerusalem and Juda is used in the context. I challenge you to try and read Zephaniah. Perhaps a door will somehow open for you.
I agree with many of your points, Hiram.. many times, the Lord came in judgment against His people who had rejected Him.
However, the point we are trying to make is this:
Here is Joel chapter 2:
1 ¶ Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; 2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. 3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. 4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. 5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. 6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. 7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: 8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. 9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. 10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: 11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? 12 ¶ Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: 13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil. 14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God? 15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: 16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet. 17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God? 18 ¶ Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people. 19 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen: 20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things. 21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things. 22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength. 23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. 24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil. 25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. 26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. 27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
(verses referred to in Acts
28 ¶ And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
In Acts 2, Peter says this:
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
So was Peter mistaken?
Or was Joel mistaken?
Or does "nigh at hand" not necessarily mean "in one generation" or "in a few years"... and thus leave many other "time constraints" in Biblical prophecy open to interpretation (God's time is not ours), forcing us to look for other proof and ways of interpretation?
Yes it had many good points. Many things such as the very first prophecy of the Bible have yet to be completely fulfilled.
Genesis 3:15 - (New King James Version) "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."
The individual being spoken against here is no other than Satan who used the serpent as a deception. Here is where he is identified. Revelation 12:7-9 - (New American Standard) "And there was war in Heaven, Michael and his Angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in Heaven." "And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called devil and Satan, who decieves the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him."
We know that the promised seed was Jesus Christ whom Satan bruised in the foot when he was executed by the Romans and of course later resurrected. However , Satan has yet to be bruised in the head and crushed out of existance, although this is foretold in Revelation 20:1-3 & 7-10 where Satan is first chained and thrown into an abyss for a thousand years, let loose to mislead for a short time and then destroyed finally into the symbolic Lake of Fire. Many things in Revelation have yet to be fulfilled completely to a finality.
One of the main things Jesus pounded on was for his followers to keep awake. Yet today there are those who would advocate slothfullness. Christian watchfulness was always throughout the ages a mark of true Christianity. If some choose not to believe that, then for the time that is left, they certainly are free to do so.
Amen, bluepacific!! I appreciate your posts very much.
I agree with many of your points, Hiram.. many times, the Lord came in judgment against His people who had rejected Him.
However, the point we are trying to make is this:
I should just give you a futurist type answer for that, just as futurists give when they can't explain many of their discrepancies. In the past I spent a lot of time on Zephaniah, to explain that passage and term "day of the Lord". And futurists just throw bits and pieces out there and don't really know what they mean, just throw them out there. Then when they are answered, they just move on and throw out another piece for the Preterists to rebuke. Not really knowing what they mean, or care. All they know is that the second coming is right around the corner. Or rapture.
As long as they are giving their money to Billy Graham and his "crusade". The Rapture theory was at one time a "charismatic" thing. Now it has been introduced into mainstream, organized, government Masonic controlled, religion. That is why you are not happy with the spiritual kingdom that exists. Christ kingdom must not be fully here according to you, and others.
Your religions of the world are controlled, You have been fed incrementally a Masonic agenda. Rapture, any time now. 1900+ years later. Lets stay awake, any day. Lets go ask Billy. 33+ degree Mason working for the new world order agenda.
I should just give you a futurist type answer for that, just as futurists give when they can't explain many of their discrepancies. In the past I spent a lot of time on Zephaniah, to explain that passage and term "day of the Lord". And futurists just throw bits and pieces out there and don't really know what they mean, just throw them out there. Then when they are answered, they just move on and throw out another piece for the Preterists to rebuke. Not really knowing what they mean, or care. All they know is that the second coming is right around the corner. Or rapture.
As long as they are giving their money to Billy Graham and his "crusade". The Rapture theory was at one time a "charismatic" thing. Now it has been introduced into mainstream, organized, government Masonic controlled, religion. That is why you are not happy with the spiritual kingdom that exists. Christ kingdom must not be fully here according to you, and others.
Your religions of the world are controlled, You have been fed incrementally a Masonic agenda. Rapture, any time now. 1900+ years later. Lets stay awake, any day. Lets go ask Billy. 33+ degree Mason working for the new world order agenda.
DayoftheLord Is Billy Graham still one of your trusted mentors?
Well, look at this. You've finally done it, Cg. You've silenced a preterist. You deserve a gold star, CG!!! Hiram has absolutely no way to refute what you said, so what does he do? Deflects, projects it back onto you, insults everyone...and now Billy Graham is the AntiChrist!!
cg silenced no one and cg did NOT answer Hiram's questions. Does that mean that Hiram silenced cg? Of course not. DOTL only sees what she wants to see! She wants Hiram to be silenced, so, therefore, she says that he has been whether he truly has been or not.
Hiram is correct. Futurists ask questions; Preterists give biblical answers; futurists ignore them and ask more questions! Neither did DOTL offer any refutations to Hiram's excellent biblical explanations. She never does. She gives reps to ANYONE who agrees with her without really studying what the person has said. As long as it goes against preterism, she is for it!
You answered thoroughly and very well, Hiram. Unfortunately, and as always, your words fall on deaf ears!
I agree with many of your points, Hiram.. many times, the Lord came in judgment against His people who had rejected Him.
However, the point we are trying to make is this:
Here is Joel chapter 2:
1 ¶ Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; 2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. 3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. 4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. 5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. 6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. 7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: 8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. 9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. 10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: 11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? 12 ¶ Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: 13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil. 14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God? 15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: 16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet. 17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God? 18 ¶ Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people. 19 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen: 20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things. 21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things. 22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength. 23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. 24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil. 25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. 26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. 27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
(verses referred to in Acts
28 ¶ And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
In Acts 2, Peter says this:
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
So was Peter mistaken?
Or was Joel mistaken?
Or does "nigh at hand" not necessarily mean "in one generation" or "in a few years"... and thus leave many other "time constraints" in Biblical prophecy open to interpretation (God's time is not ours), forcing us to look for other proof and ways of interpretation?
No, cg 81! Near still means near. Why won't futurists admit that they struggle with these simple words BECAUSE and ONLY BECAUSE to take them at their face value (a thing futurists normally pride themselves on), would cause their entire system of interpretation to collapse. They MUST of necessity ignore them or redefine them!
As for Joel--how many times does this have to be explained? The entire timing of this book has not been determined. It is very likely and very possible, however, that the first chapters of this book have to do with the OT destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple (or at least some other judgment upon Israel). The day of the Lord Joel spoke of in the first chapters of his book concerned that time of God's judgment that was indeed AT HAND. Do you not see the break between verse 27 and 28--you futurists who are so fond of gaps?
Then Joel says--And it shall come to pass AFTERWARD. No definite time is given. The day of the Lord is then described as "the great and terrible day of the Lord" and it concerns the time following that time when the Spirit was to be poured out--Pentecost. That time "afterward" is the time spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 24 that was to be fulfilled in HIS generation.
Jesus said "This generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place." That included all that preceded--even verses 29 and following which use much of the same language found in Joel's description of the time that would follow the coming of the Spirit! Where is your literalism here? Not only do you feel justified in redefining simple time words--you redefine an expression ("this generation") Jesus ALWAYS used to refer to His contemporaries. There are no exceptions other than the one you must create in order to salvage your preconceived ideas! That expression occurs 20 times. Would you please explain your justification and the precedent for giving it a meaning in Matthew 24:34 which is totally foreign to that which Jesus ALWAYS gave it? By what authority do you do that?
John was shown those things which were in his day to SHORTLY take place because the time was THEN near. These are simple words. You stumble over them because you do not LIKE what they clearly convey! There can be no truth ascertained with such an approach. The entire book of Revelation deals with the events which were to shortly take place in John's day. But just in case someone should somehow miss the clear meaning in the very first three verses of the book, the angel gives the time restraints again in the last chapter. He reiterates that the things John was shown were to SHORTLY take place (22:6). The angel tells John NOT to seal up the words of the prophecy (Daniel was told to seal them up!). Why? Because the time for their fulfillment was THEN near! (22:10).
This magnificent book which gives such a vivid picture of the events of the Jewish-Roman Wars and the "coming" of Christ in judgment upon that generation of Jews guilty of all the righteous blood shed on the earth (Matt. 23) and His establishment of the New Covenant, "the new heavens and the new earth," is mournfully lost in the fanciful speculations of those who will not see the correct timing. For far too many, its wonders and its beautiful portrayal of God's faithfulness to His promises will never be realized. Nor does it grant the deserved honor and respect to those saints of THAT day who suffered far more than any of us ever will. WE are not the YE in so much of the NT. But WE cannot fathom such a thing. If it is not about WE, then what's the point?
Again I ask--where in the NT does SHORTLY ever mean a long way off? When does at hand or near ever mean later--much later? Look up EVERY instance where these words are used and justify in EVERY case why near does not mean near? Or are you changing the meaning ONLY in those verses that have to do with prophecy? Why would you do that? Is there a clear mandate somewhere that justifies such an abuse? Or do you do so out of necessity--your understanding of prophecy demands that you redefine them so that they fit your schemes. Please tell me which verses where these words (e.g. shortly and at hand) should be redefined and when they can have their normal, usual, common, everyday meaning? Can you provide some guidelines for this outlandish abuse of simple words? Can you?
It takes all of the constraints I can muster to be patient with those who would reason away ALL the MANY clear time indicators in the NT with an unjustified and erroneous appeal to 2 Peter 3! How many times does it have to be stated that Peter had no such thing in mind. God dwells outside of time, but WHEN He communicates with mankind, He does so with words we will understand. What kind of a God would give a word with a typical, common, everyday meaning a totally opposite meaning?
NEAR means NEAR and AT HAND means AT HAND and SHORTLY means SHORTLY. Hiram and I have provided MANY verses in the NT in which those words appear. Do you not see how you pick and choose which ones you are going to take at face value and which ones you are going to redefine to fit your system? Look them up, cg81!
It it disingenuous on the part of futurists to claim that they are "literalists "and preterists are "spiritualists" when they themselves refuse to take the most simple terminology at its face value. You cannot and must not attempt to reason away or manipulate clear time indicators by a ridiculous appeal to 2 Peter! God inspired the NT writers to convey His message--He did not do so by using common words with uncommon and even opposite meanings!
Peter was not mistaken and neither was Joel mistaken. They both spoke of the same time. But when Joel spoke of a day of the Lord that was near, He was NOT speaking of the same time he later addressed in chapter 3. Joel spoke of two different times--one was a day of the Lord that was near historically; the other was "the great and terrible day of the Lord" which was not near and which was not of his day but concerned "those days" that were to come "afterward!" Read the book in its context!
As for Joel--how many times does this have to be explained? The entire timing of this book has not been determined. It is very likely and very possible, however, that the first chapters of this book have to do with the OT destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple (or at least some other judgment upon Israel). The day of the Lord Joel spoke of in the first chapters of his book concerned that time of God's judgment that was indeed AT HAND. Do you not see the break between verse 27 and 28--you futurists who are so fond of gaps?
As someone who is not "preterist" or "futurist" and who hates labels in general, upon studying I have concluded that some of the events in the first part of Matthew 24 such as the destruction of the temple and possibly the tribulation have already happened.. but at the end of the chapter and Matthew 25, concerning the end of time and judgement, there are no time constraints at all.. yet you insisted that the time constraints at the beginning of the chapter MUST be applied to the end.
Anyway, enough arguing over trivial things! Cool, a new emoticon!
Suffice it to say, I believe that there is much danger in placing too much emphasis in time constraints such as "near", "shortly", etc... and basing our interpretation of prophecy and making supposed events fit this limitation. We cannot ever say with authority what these terms refer to on their own (with no other proof), since they are relative and do not give a definite period of time.
We must look for other evidence.
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Day of the Lord re-visited
Hiram has absolutely no way to refute what you said, so what does he do? Deflects, projects it back onto you, insults everyone...and now Billy Graham is the AntiChrist!!
