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Do not judge the sufficiency and the truthfulness of the Bible by the sinful misinterpretations of it!
You take great pride (a lack of humility I might add!) in YOUR "church's" unity of beliefs. But unity of beliefs is not the criteria for truth--it is the beliefs themselves against the truths of God's Word that either affirm their truthfulness or deny their truthfulness.
I do not care to converse with someone who makes such statements as this: "Jesus created one truth and one Church. Not some mystical organizationless loosely associated clump of human debris called Christianity."
You have your reward, juj, in this life in your man-made "church" of Roman Catholicism and its man-made traditions. There are millions upon millions of you falsely trusting in an organization and not in the Christ of the Bible. But remember this:
"There is a way that SEEMS right to a man, but its end is the way of death" (Proverbs. 14:12).
Jesus taught His disciples, saying: "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the way and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it" (Mat. 7:13, 14).
Jeremiah31 31-37 behold, the days come, said the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers...
Tough questions for you Born again Jerry. What is the New Covenant? Do we have it today? Has it been around for a while? Acording to you we do not have the "New Covenant" yet you claim to be born again.
Matthew 26:28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Have your "sins" been removed, Born again Jerry?
Many can't quite comprehend that salvation had come. To the Jew first, and then the Gentile. Also, to the dead in the grave or hades. This is what David was waiting for, his hope, in Acts 2:23-31.
Just because the Jews were Abraham's seed, was no guarantee.
Romans 9:7 nor [are they] all children because they are the seed of Abraham;...
You had to belong to Christ.
Galatians 3:29 And if you [are] Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Colossians 3:11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave [nor] free, but Christ [is] all and in all.
Isaiah 65:15, "And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:"
Matthew 21:43, "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
The above was fulfilled in 70 AD, when the Jews were slayed, the temple burned down, and the Kingdom of God was taken from the Jews and given to all who believe in Christ.
Hebrews 8:8,13 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- In that He says, "A new [covenant,"] He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Jerry, when were the days coming for a new covenant for the house of Israel? Does Judah exists today? Why was not the covenant established already, perhaps say at Christ's crucifixion? Now, what is becoming obsolete, and old, and when is it to vanish? When was the book of Hebrew written?
I look very forward to your answers.
Also you will have to prove your above statement with scripture. As I have proven otherwise. Below. When the word "thousand" is used in scripture, is it literal?
Revelation 20:4 says, "...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." It's not Christ that reigns 1000 years. Notice that it is the souls that were beheaded for the witness of Christ and the word of God, that reigned with Christ. It is not you. There is no reign on earth mentioned here, or Christ on Earth.
Revelation 6:9-11 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both [the number of] their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they [were,] was completed.
Hiram... the church is not Israel and Israel is not the Church. The mixing of these two separate programs has probably caused more people more misunderstanding about the Bible. Then any other error.
You're right Hiram. When you say, I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Jacob. The old covenant was the 10 Commandments. The new covenant with Israel says, I will put my laws into their mind and write them in their hearts. And I will be to them a God and they shall be to me a people.Hiram can you show me where the church had an old covenant?
Yes, I have been saved by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.
In this day and age, Christ is calling out both the Jew and Gentile to be members of his body. And when this body is complete, and that means when the last person comes into that body. Then God will again deal with the nation of Israel. His chosen people.
Acts chapter 1 verse six and seven when they therefore were come together, they asked of him saying Lord will thou at this time restore again the Kingdom to Israel? Again? They are talking about David's kingdom and Solomons Kingdom.
Acts, chapter 15, verse 14 through 17. Simeon has declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles to take out of them a people for his name . Hiram, this is the body of Christ.
And to this agree the words of the prophets, as it is written. After this I will return and will build again the tabernacle of David after what? After the church is complete, or the body of Christ. If you prefer.
Which is fallen down and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up that the residue of men might seek after the Lord. And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, said the Lord, who doeth all these things.
I would also like to talk about Matthew 24 verse 38 and 39 behold your houses left onto you desolate. I don't hear too much about the second verse, for I say unto you. You shall not see me henceforth till you shall say. Blessed is he that, cometh in the name of the Lord.
I hear this one a lot luke, chapter 17 verse 20, and when he was demanded of the Pharisees. When the Kingdom of God should come he answered them and said the Kingdom of God, cometh not with observation: neither shall they say Lo here! or Lo there! For behold, the Kingdom of God is within you. Who is this speaking let us not take this out of context. It's the Pharisees that are demanding an answer.
So when he says, Kingdom of God does not come with observation. He means I am right here, and as far as the line that says the Kingdom of God is within you. There are other translations that say among you.
So where the king is, there is the Kingdom.
You are right. I will not be there. I belong to the body of Christ, and I will be caught away or raptured before the tribulation even starts. This is the time of Jacob's trouble and then after the tribulation. That's when Christ returns and sets up his kingdom. This is a physical Kingdom. I won't go into all the detail right here, but I will say animals will become peaceful lifespans will increase. There will be no more war. There is much more I could say, but I think that's enough for now.
No, twin.spin, you do not have to tell me about context. I did understand your context--you said "PRETERIST(S), did you not?
While He walked this earth, He promised His disciples that He would return to THEM (Mat. 14; Mat. 16; Mat. 24; John 14, etc.). His apostles taught that very same thing--expecting Him to return to THEM in their lifetimes (2 Thessalonians 4, James 5:8; John 1:1; 3; 22:6, 10, etc.).
When did I say my Jesus is dead? Never, twin.spin. That is a false accusation. Jesus is most certainly alive and reigning from His throne in heaven. Also, simply because I deny your concept of the nature of the resurrection, does not mean that I deny the resurrection! The Sadducees, with whom you erroneously equate preterists in this regard, deny any resurrection of any kind! Preterism does NOT teach that!
You misunderstand the meaning of 1 Corinthians 15 and 2 Thessalonians 4 as physical bodies popping up out of their graves at some supposed end of time. Because many preterists believe this to be a very REAL but spiritual event affecting a literal but nonphysical body and that the physical body was never meant to enter the kingdom (flesh and blood cannot inherit it), they are wrongly label heretics. We disagree on the nature of the resurrection, twin.spin, and not on the reality of it. It is unfair and unjustified to accuse preterists of denying the resurrection. That is simply not true!
What "Jesus" are you accusing me of believing in, twin.spin? Why do futurists always have to resort to such hateful, unjustified accusations instead of dealing with the issues. Have you ever really tried to understand what preterists are saying before you accuse them of not believing in "your" Jesus or of denying the resurrection?
Paul, when before Felix, the governor, said "There is about to be a resurrection" (Acts 24:15). What did he mean, twin.spin? What did Jesus mean when He said to Martha--"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die" (John 11:23). Isn't Jesus contradicting Himself here. We die but we don't die? The body dies and returns to the earth from where it came--but WE live and WE never die! Notice 1 Corinthians 15--that which is eternal is changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye--mortality puts on immortality; corruption puts on incorruption; the natural puts on the spiritual. Is not the body sown a natural body but raised a spiritual body? Does not Paul clearly teach that? Then why do you find fault when Preterists who take him at his inspired word? Why is taking Paul's words at faced value condemned by such as yourself as heresy? What is the context of this passage?
Please clearly understand where others are coming from before you make accusations.
Preterist
I'm glad to here that you believe that Jesus came to die for you sins, that you are saved by grace.
The difference still comes down to the fact that Jesus physically rose from the dead. He is the first fruits and we are going to be like him. The physical resurrection is the proof of Gods acceptance of Christs victory over death. We share in his victory, now. Just like those who deny him, stand condemned already.
I do clearly understand where others are coming from. That is why I'm neither a futurist or a preterist.
Jerrydb; Hiram... the church is not Israel and Israel is not the Church. The mixing of these two separate programs has probably caused more people more misunderstanding about the Bible. Then any other error.
Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew who [is one] outwardly, nor [is] circumcision that which [is] outward in the flesh; 29 but [he is] a Jew who [is one] inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise [is] not from men but from God.
So Jerrydb, this scripture is nothing new. Preterist and others have already presented it to you, but I thought I would show it again. Why, because I love to type. Little did I know, that typing class I enrolled in when I was a kid would come in handy. So now I'm practicing.
Quote:
quote:Jerrydb right Hiram. When you say, I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Jacob. The old covenant was the 10 Commandments.
The new covenant with Israel says, I will put my laws into their mind and write them in their hearts. And I will be to them a God and they shall be to me a people.Hiram can you show me where the church had an old covenant?
Well fist of all Jerrydb, Church is an erroneous word, that the "world" has substituted, for the greek word ekklesia. King James himself knew what exactly he was doing when he personally instructed the translators to use the word "church", in his translation.
Psalms 22:22, "I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee."
Hebrews 2:12, "Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee."
Look at the comparison between the New and Old Testaments.
See where it can get a little confusing Jerrydb? King James did this on purpose, Because, what is God's, belongs to him, but King James could have power over the "church" because now the meaning has changed. And as a matter of fact, the Queen of England is the head of the church till this day. Who else claims this? Pope? Any one else Jerrydb. Remember, circumcision of the heart, spiritual kingdom.
But God's assembly has existed from the beginning. You and others falsify this spiritual kingdom in your attempt to make Christ and His kingdom a earthly, physical kingdom where He will subdue His enemies of by killing them.
A "covenant" and "law" are two completely different things. Many believe that by the "Old Covenant" being done away with, that automatically refers to "God's Law" being done away with. This is not true. A "covenant" or "agreement" is not synonymous with "law." To illustrate, here is a use of the word "covenant", which cannot possibly refer to law:
Genesis 9:12-17, "And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you...a covenant between me and the earth...And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh...that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth."
The above is a covenant, or an agreement, between God and every living thing on earth. The animals were not bound to obey any law on penalty of death, this was simply an agreement. Now, there may be agreements, or covenants, in which people agree to obey certain laws in exchange for blessings, which is what the Old Covenant did, but this does not mean that if the agreement to obey certain laws are done away with, that the laws themselves are done away with as well.
Hebrews 8:13 In that He says, "A new [covenant,"] He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
So Jerry, the Old is obsolete. So again, according to your diagnosis we do not have to care about the ten commandments, correct? As scripture shows that we just looked at, a covenant is not the law or ten commandments. Your answers to my questions were very vague. And incomplete.
Please try to answer my questions if you can from my previous post.
This has needed to be seriously addressed for some time now on this board, and God revealed to me the scriptures to do just that.
I can feel God's utter disgust at the flagrant misrepresentation of His Word by way of this teaching. Preterism is the spiritualization of scriptures that then become anything that preterists want it to mean. This is essentially playing God.
The force-feeding and sheer argumentative nature of preterism alone makes it pretty obvious that it's incorrect. But here are some facts and scriptures that PROVE it's wrong.
Preterism insists that all Biblical prophecy, even Revelation, was fulfilled in 70 AD and that none of it is relevant for today's use. That is a fallacy created and perpetuated in the middle ages, to take away the focus from the terrible things that they were guilty of in that time period, and they KNEW they were guilty of, and did not want to be held accountable for. What better way to do that than to say that the Bible didn't apply to them? It's manipulating God's Word to suit one's own purposes at it's very worst.
Also, it has been proven and confirmed by the early church fathers that the book of Revelation was written AFTER 70 AD, in 95 AD!! If Revelation was meant for the 70 AD generation, then why was it written after it supposedly had already taken place? Exactly.
The following scripture PROVES beyond a shadow of a doubt that the preterist belief is completely wrong and needs to go back where it came from; the middle ages.
2 Thessalonians, Chapter 2...THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come."
"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day WILL NOT come, UNTIL the rebellion occurs and THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS IS REVEALED, the man doomed to destruction."
Alright. Let me just pause here for a minute. Do you see and understand what is being said here, plain as day? "Jesus WILL NOT return (2nd coming) UNTIL "The Man of Lawlessness"......who is the "AntiChrist"......IS REVEALED!!!! Not only does this scripture PROVE that Jesus has not come because we KNOW that the AntiChrist has not been revealed, it also proves that the AntiChrist is a "MAN"!!! Singularly a man, one person. Yes, there is the "spirit" of the AntiChrist that is among us right now. But this scripture is proof positive that Jesus has not returned and that the AntiChrist is a man that is still to come.
NONE OF IT HAS HAPPENED. The above IS THE PROOF.
Continuing on with Chapter 2:
"He (the AntiChrist) will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."
When exactly did the above happen? It hasn't!!
"Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. FOR THE SECRET POWER OF LAWLESSNESS IS ALREADY AT WORK; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way."
"And then the lawless ONE will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy BY THE SPLENDOR OF HIS (Jesus) COMING!!!!!!
Once again, the scripture states PLAINLY that the AntiChrist is ONE, one MAN, that will be destroyed WHEN JESUS RETURNS!!
I won't quote the rest of Chapter 2, but I would suggest to read it. Those who are left behind after the Rapture and still refuse to believe and live for God will receive a powerful "delusion" that will blind them into believing the lies of the AntiChrist.
Teachings such as preterism are not just a matter of different interpretation. It's way more serious than that, and it is the "spirit" of the AntiChrist at work that tricks and fools people into believing such blasphemous things.
Not only is it dangerous because it's completely false, it's dangerous because it completely denies that Jesus is the Savior who died for us on the Cross for our wretched selves and sins, but it calls Jesus a liar because it voids, nullifies and robs the Church of the blessed Hope that He most assuredly promised to us.
This is serious stuff, people. Please, please, please repent NOW and be ready to meet the Lord at anytime. Don't believe the lies and deceit of false teachings and "new age" deception.
There is great HOPE in the Word of God which is the Bible, and that's exactly how it should be taught and understood.
I agree with what you are saying here, dayofhteLord, and I am really troubled by this preterism thing. It's really bizarre thinking and it appears to me to be completely manmade. I just don't know where people come up with this stuff. Well, I take that back. It comes from the master of confusion.
But what's the most disturbing to me is that they claim to be Christians.
I agree with what you are saying here, dayofhteLord, and I am really troubled by this preterism thing. It's really bizarre thinking and it appears to me to be completely manmade. I just don't know where people come up with this stuff. Well, I take that back. It comes from the master of confusion.
But what's the most disturbing to me is that they claim to be Christians.
I agree with you and others, it is a manmade believe, not what the Bible teaches. Scary stuff.
I agree with what you are saying here, dayofhteLord, and I am really troubled by this preterism thing. It's really bizarre thinking and it appears to me to be completely manmade. I just don't know where people come up with this stuff. Well, I take that back. It comes from the master of confusion.
But what's the most disturbing to me is that they claim to be Christians.
Please show your proof.
Christian is actually a word used by the "heathen", to describe the followers of Christ.
Psalms 18:26 with the pure You reveal Yourself as pure; and with the perverting ones You appear perverse;
the bible has tremendous relevance to us, because human nature has not changed. its the never ending story of the power of divine spirit over material obstacles.
I am really troubled by this preterism thing. It's really bizarre thinking and it appears to me to be completely manmade. I just don't know where people come up with this stuff.
Ahem... they read it in the bible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northsouth
Well, I take that back. It comes from the master of confusion.
Hiram... the church is not Israel and Israel is not the Church. The mixing of these two separate programs has probably caused more people more misunderstanding about the Bible. Then any other error.
You're right Hiram. When you say, I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Jacob. The old covenant was the 10 Commandments. The new covenant with Israel says, I will put my laws into their mind and write them in their hearts. And I will be to them a God and they shall be to me a people.Hiram can you show me where the church had an old covenant?
Yes, I have been saved by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.
In this day and age, Christ is calling out both the Jew and Gentile to be members of his body. And when this body is complete, and that means when the last person comes into that body. Then God will again deal with the nation of Israel. His chosen people.
Acts chapter 1 verse six and seven when they therefore were come together, they asked of him saying Lord will thou at this time restore again the Kingdom to Israel? Again? They are talking about David's kingdom and Solomons Kingdom.
Acts, chapter 15, verse 14 through 17. Simeon has declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles to take out of them a people for his name . Hiram, this is the body of Christ.
And to this agree the words of the prophets, as it is written. After this I will return and will build again the tabernacle of David after what? After the church is complete, or the body of Christ. If you prefer.
Which is fallen down and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up that the residue of men might seek after the Lord. And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, said the Lord, who doeth all these things.
I would also like to talk about Matthew 24 verse 38 and 39 behold your houses left onto you desolate. I don't hear too much about the second verse, for I say unto you. You shall not see me henceforth till you shall say. Blessed is he that, cometh in the name of the Lord.
I hear this one a lot luke, chapter 17 verse 20, and when he was demanded of the Pharisees. When the Kingdom of God should come he answered them and said the Kingdom of God, cometh not with observation: neither shall they say Lo here! or Lo there! For behold, the Kingdom of God is within you. Who is this speaking let us not take this out of context. It's the Pharisees that are demanding an answer.
So when he says, Kingdom of God does not come with observation. He means I am right here, and as far as the line that says the Kingdom of God is within you. There are other translations that say among you.
So where the king is, there is the Kingdom.
You are right. I will not be there. I belong to the body of Christ, and I will be caught away or raptured before the tribulation even starts. This is the time of Jacob's trouble and then after the tribulation. That's when Christ returns and sets up his kingdom. This is a physical Kingdom. I won't go into all the detail right here, but I will say animals will become peaceful lifespans will increase. There will be no more war. There is much more I could say, but I think that's enough for now.
Born again Jerry
Born again Jerry: You do wrongly assume that Jesus' words "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" is a good thing. When Christ "returned" in judgment in A. D. 70 and their house was left unto them desolate, they knew that He had come upon them--just as God had come upon their forefathers in OT times! They mourned (Rev. 1) as they were saying "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord"--not with a heart of repentance but with an acknowledgment that God had once again judged them.
As for Acts 1:6--let's back up to Acts 1:3. For forty days Jesus spoke to them concerning the Kingdom of God! They knew that His kingdom pertained somehow to Israel--true Israel, the remnant of Israel. But they had not yet received the Holy Spirit and had not been shown the great mysteries of the faith for which they would live and die. In spite of Jesus' teaching during those forty days, they did not foresee the inclusion of the Gentiles into the kingdom and they did not fully understand that the restoration of the kingdom was to concern spiritual Israel and not physical Israel. Jesus tells them that they will be given power "when the Holy Spirit" came upon them. That power included understanding of the nature of the kingdom. Notice that Jesus tells them that they would be witnesses not just to physical Israel, but to Samaria as well--to the Samaritans, the half-breeds, hated by the Jews. And they would also be witnesses of Him to the "end of the earth." All of this is senseless if the restoration had to do with physical, national Israel only.
Covenant for the Church? Genesis 12--God to Abraham: "in you all families of the earth shall be blessed." Notice what Paul says about this very verse in Galatians 3:6-9:
" . . . Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scriptures, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying 'in you all the nations shall be blessed'."
Preterist
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