Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Well, for once agree with you I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA!
millions will be caught off guard... and fooled. Into eternity...
As the poster below will indicate.
But, Why did He not say to Malachi, "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place?" Interesting question, don't you think?
DayoftheLord
2 Corinthians 5:1-2,5 For we know that if our earthly house, [this] tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, Now He who has prepared us for this very thing [is] God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
DayoftheLord, what is the building from God, not made with hands? Where is it? Is it here today, or yet to come? Was the earthly building destroyed already, perhaps in 70 AD.
Notice in the above when 2 Corinthians was written, Paul is looking forward to the new "habitation" from heaven, a new house.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
Revelation 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them [and be] their God. Rev 22:7,12,20.
So we can see by the above, that the tabernacle is with men. Is that yet future DOTL? Or is the tabernacle non existent today? Are we left in limbo? No Physical temple, and no spiritual temple? Obviously you believe that revelation 21 is yet to happen. Then where does this spiritual kingdom fit? Does this get confusing? After all, the bible says the Christ is the chief corner stone, and the apostles make up the rest of the spiritual building. Here is the proof below.
Ephesians 2:20-22 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner[stone,] in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
Galatians 4:19 My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you,
DayoftheLord, as we can see by the above, the spiritual temple exists today, but you want a physical kingdom. You watch for this physical kingdom and fail to realize that the spiritual is what was established.
The truth is, Christ said that the kingdom was within you! Luke 17:21 "nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."
Can God be within you now, a spiritual kingdom, yet you long for a physical? Why did God destroy the physical in the first place? Just keep it, then we could have all the same Pharisees, Sadducees, Pentecostals, Mormons, Catholics, Jehovah's witnesses living in it today. You await a different kingdom. It hasn't happened yet in over 1900 years. When will His kingdom come. Perhaps another 1900? All these denominations cannot enter, as the Pharisees did not enter. They were destroyed at Christ's coming.
Revelation 21:22 . But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
We have the temple here today. Please Look at the words above, "late" in the book of revelation. The temple was established when the old was torn down. Then the new was in full power. Christ and the apostles form the foundation.
John 2:19-21 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
(NKJV) Hebrews 9:8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.
Well, for once agree with you I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA!
millions will be caught off guard... and fooled. Into eternity...
As the poster below will indicate.
But, Why did He not say to Malachi, "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place?" Interesting question, don't you think?
DayoftheLord
2 Corinthians 5:1-2,5 For we know that if our earthly house, [this] tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, Now He who has prepared us for this very thing [is] God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
DayoftheLord, what is the building from God, not made with hands? Where is it? Is it here today, or yet to come? Was the earthly building destroyed already, perhaps in 70 AD.
Notice in the above when 2 Corinthians was written, Paul is looking forward to the new "habitation" from heaven, a new house.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
Revelation 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them [and be] their God. Rev 22:7,12,20.
So we can see by the above, that the tabernacle is with men. Is that yet future DOTL? Or is the tabernacle non existent today? Are we left in limbo? No Physical temple, and no spiritual temple? Obviously you believe that revelation 21 is yet to happen. Then where does this spiritual kingdom fit? Does this get confusing? After all, the bible says the Christ is the chief corner stone, and the apostles make up the rest of the spiritual building. Here is the proof below.
Ephesians 2:20-22 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner[stone,] in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
Galatians 4:19 My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you,
DayoftheLord, as we can see by the above, the spiritual temple exists today, but you want a physical kingdom. You watch for this physical kingdom and fail to realize that the spiritual is what was established.
The truth is, Christ said that the kingdom was within you! Luke 17:21 "nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."
Can God be within you now, a spiritual kingdom, yet you long for a physical? Why did God destroy the physical in the first place? Just keep it, then we could have all the same Pharisees, Sadducees, Pentecostals, Mormons, Catholics, Jehovah's witnesses living in it today. You await a different kingdom. It hasn't happened yet in over 1900 years. When will His kingdom come. Perhaps another 1900? All these denominations cannot enter, as the Pharisees did not enter. They were destroyed at Christ's coming.
Revelation 21:22 . But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
We have the temple here today. Please Look at the words above, "late" in the book of revelation. The temple was established when the old was torn down. Then the new was in full power. Christ and the apostles form the foundation.
John 2:19-21 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
(NKJV) Hebrews 9:8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.
I appreciate the time and effort you put into your post, Hiram, but like I said in the OP and to preterist, I am not going to debate this anymore.
It's fruitless, and nothing that preterists say will ever have any affect on my complete and unshakable knowledge of the truth of God's Word.
Feel free to discuss with whomever you like in this thread, but there's no point in directing your posts to me. God bless.
Of course I do, FFA. That's all I want for anyone. It's not about my dispensational belief. It's about people coming to know Christ and being saved. What they believe beyond that needs to come from the Bible and the Holy Spirit. And a lot of what I see here on this board is not in alignment with the Word of God. But that doesn't mean I think someone is going to hell because they don't believe like I do.
That's just silly. I had never even heard of preterism before I came to this board. The problem I have with it is that the whole concept goes against what Jesus taught. It takes away the hope that Jesus gave and cancels out His death on the cross. Calling Jesus a liar is being in danger of hellfire. I am concerned with the souls of preterists, but I cannot say for sure if this belief will send them to hell. I just know it's dangerous. It appears to me that the preterist teaching is all about being right, about PRIDE. Not about the Word of God, or Jesus' teachings. I want people to humble themselves before God and ask to be shown the truth, rather than being beligerant and prideful, thinking they know it all when they haven't even sought God's assistance in the matter.
I put all the stuff I believe out there because I want to give people other perspectives. There are so many false teachings these days, and it's my duty to share what God has shown me to be the truth. There is absolutely no way to categorize me....I am not a futurist, dispensationalist, pre-millenialist or whatever you want to call people who believe like I do. I am a believer in Jesus Christ, and I have been led by the Holy Spirit in what I believe through the scriptures. Anything that I believe is not going to send me to hell, or is it going to influence anyone else to believe what I believe and send them to hell. The worst that can happen is that I may be wrong in part of what I believe.
Nothing I believe puts me or anyone else in danger of hellfire, because it's all based on the scriptures and Jesus' own words and teachings. You can't go wrong with that. Where someone can go wrong is in prideful arrogance in not seeking God's face and humbling themselves. Taking the Word of God out of context to say what they want it to say, and calling Jesus a liar. That IS putting oneself in the path of judgment by hellfire.
I see no expression of love in any preterist on this board. They have been belittling and badgering, and never any mention of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross and how important that is. There is no demonstration of tolerance, no patience, no love. THAT, IS NOT of Christ. My problems with preterism are simple. It is man-made hogwash that goes against everything the Bible teaches. It has nothing to do with Christ, the love of Christ, or being a Christian. I definitely get hot under the collar when someone's own personal theology is masquerading as Christianity, when it has nothing to do with Jesus Christ. You betcha.
Say what you want, do what you will, read te che lele instead of your Bible, but none of it will get you to God the Father except Jesus Christ.
Reread your post, DOTL, and then include yourself in your own accusations of unloving belittlement and badgering! Preterism is man-made "hogwash" that goes against EVERYTHING the Bible teaches? Preterism calls Jesus a liar? It does NOT! It is futurism, in particular, dispensational premillennialism that calls Jesus a liar by denying that He did the things He promised He would do.
Again, your posts have nothing of Scripture in them. As usual, you merely spew out your dispy teachings without any support. And then you accuse preterists of taking things out of context! Huh?
What is out of context about the following, DOTL?
Jesus is talking to His disciples right there with Him throughout the entire chapter of Matthew 24. Yet YOU insist that He is really speaking to US. Preterists take things out of context??? Jesus told His disciples standing right there with Him that THEY would see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, that THEY would be killed, that THEY would hear of wars and rumors of wars, that THEY would be persecuted, that THEY were to recognize the signs of His coming just as easily as THEY recognized the coming of summer in the budding the trees! Did not Jesus clearly say that He would return in THAT generation? Did He not use that expression ("this generation") in the sense in which He ALWAYS used it--of His contemporaries? Who is taking Scripture out of context, DOTL?
What is the context of the epistles of Paul? What does Paul mean when he speaks of "we" and "you" and "our," etc.? Preterism takes those pronouns seriously and IN context. That is how we are to understand such passages as 1 Thessalonians 4, 2 Thessalonians 2, 1 Corinthians 15. These are passages which futurists apply to themselves and give no thought to the fact that the words are NOT addressed primarily to them! You yourself, in your failed attempt to "blow preterism out of the biblical waters," took 2 Thessalonians out of context. You never even attempted to place it in context. What is the context? Notice the direct address Paul uses and the person pronouns. He is writing a personal letter to specific people OF HIS DAY (the "brethren"). That is the CONTEXT! He speaks of "our" gathering together to Him [Christ]--the "our" including himself and his contemporaries to whom he is writing! In other words, it was THEIR gathering to Him that was in view and not OURS! He tells THEM not to be deceived--not US! He writes that THEY knew who the restrainer was. The mystery of lawlessness was THEN ALREADY at work! That is the CONTEXT, DOTL? YOU are guilty of your own accusations!
What about the Revelation? Was not John clearly shown those things which were in his day to SHORTLY take place? Was he not told not to seal up the words of the prophecy because the time was THEN near? Is that not the clear time frame of the entire book, DOTL? Who is taking things out of context?
And unloving? You need to reread all of your posts to me, DOTL, before you dare accuse others of being unloving.
Preterist
Last edited by Preterist; 09-21-2008 at 09:10 PM..
I appreciate the time and effort you put into your post, Hiram, but like I said in the OP and to preterist, I am not going to debate this anymore.
It's fruitless, and nothing that preterists say will ever have any affect on my complete and unshakable knowledge of the truth of God's Word.
Feel free to discuss with whomever you like in this thread, but there's no point in directing your posts to me. God bless.
I don't write to change your mind, DOTL. It is obvious that you are not open to serious Bible study and are not willing to adjust your beliefs according to the truths found in the Scriptures. I write to those who are open to a biblical approach that contradicts the errors that they have accepted from dispensational premillennial churches and pastors.
I have sought to present the Scriptures IN THEIR CONTEXT apart from preconceived ideas. You are a slave to your preconceived ideas because you like them--you cannot imagine a world in which YOU are not personally included in the spectacular events of Bible prophecy. YOU have accepted the nature of Christ's coming which you have been taught and then deny that He has come because His coming didn't take place as YOU think it must.
You have not presented any sound case against preterism. You simply hate it because it does not line up with your conception of how things must be. That is dangerous close-mindedness. But again, I don't hope to change your thinking. I hope to show others the errors of your preconceived ideas--errors to which I myself once held.
Sadly, I do not think you believe what you believe through sound, biblical, personal, in-depth study of the Bible. You have been taught a system of belief and you impose that system on every passage of Scripture you read. You do not take the time to even understand preterism. You misinterpret and misrepresent it constantly and malign those who hold to it and portray them as heretics, either intentionally or ignorantly.
We must all be careful how we divide God's Word. We should all approach every passage of Scripture as though we have never seen it before--look at it afresh every time we look at it to either reconfirm what we believe or adjust our beliefs concerning it (if through further study we discover that we have misunderstood and misinterpreted it). You are not willing to do that. I find that sad and dangerous.
I am still waiting for all of those many verses that "COMPLETELY blow preterism out of the biblical waters." Is 2 Thessalonians 2 your only "proof?" YOU started this thread as though you had indefensible proof against preterism, yet you now want to depart from the discussion you yourself started! What's with that?
I am still waiting for all of those many verses that "COMPLETELY blow preterism out of the biblical waters." Is 2 Thessalonians 2 your only "proof?" YOU started this thread as though you had indefensible proof against preterism, yet you now want to depart from the discussion you yourself started! What's with that?
Preterist
Preterist,
DOTL is a very kind and gentile person. She has every right to express her faith as she believes it to be true, just as much you. If you do not care for it, nobody is forcing you to contribute.
I'm sure there will be a sign over the door of a room in heaven that will read:
Shhhh...quiet please! Peterists thinks they are the only one up here!
Preterist,
DOTL is a very kind and gentile person. She has every right to express her faith as she believes it to be true, just as much you. If you do not care for it, nobody is forcing you to contribute.
I'm sure there will be a sign over the door of a room in heaven that will read:
Shhhh...quiet please! Peterists thinks they are the only one up here!
Let me make this clear, twin.spin. Preterists DO NOT EVER accuse futurists of being unbelievers. We would not be the ones with that sign above us. It is futurists who call preterists heretics and question their salvation!
Furthermore, I have NEVER said that DOTL or anyone has no right to express an opinion. My problem has always been that too often it is just an opinion. If I have done anything, I have sought to encourage people to know WHY they believe WHAT they believe.
Twin.spin--DOTL is the one who began this thread--even boldly entitling it "Scriptures that completely blow preterism out of the biblical waters." I have merely demanded that she present them in their context and in a format that represents her personal, hermeneutically sound study!
I cannot believe that you are accusing preterists of trying to stifle the rights of futurists to express their views. The reverse is clearly the case here. I am accused of twisting the Scriptures when, in fact, I often merely post the words of Jesus or of one of the apostles and ask others what they meant by them! I am accused of taking things out of context when, in fact, I spend a great deal of time trying to ascertain the contexts of EVERY passage I present. I am sorry, but I do not see that same approach by DOTL. Yet she accuses me of taking things out of context. She does not deal with the biblical questions people raise but simply comes back with her beliefs. If we are not going to seriously look at the Word in its context and through sound hermeneutical principles, then we are left with simple opinions.
DOTL seems to want to open a thread and then close it down when people disagree with her and she cannot defend herself. She has done this before. Perhaps YOU have some of those Scriptures that COMPLETELY blow preterism out of the biblical waters? Perhaps YOU could present them in their CONTEXT so that we preterists could be enlightened from our errors!
Preterist,
DOTL is a very kind and gentile person. She has every right to express her faith as she believes it to be true, just as much you. If you do not care for it, nobody is forcing you to contribute.
I'm sure there will be a sign over the door of a room in heaven that will read:
Shhhh...quiet please! Peterists thinks they are the only one up here!
News Flash: DOTL has referred to me as a blasphemer and heretic. DOTL has accused us of not being led by the spirit ... proclaiming herself in a spiritually elite category that makes our perspectives completely worthless.
It is DOTL ... not Preterist or myself ... who has made claims that our souls are in jeopardy. Look just a few posts back and you can read it for yourself. I would quote it, but just as in another thread recently... as soon as I do, DOTL might just edit the post and the quote will be removed as orphaned text.
Last edited by Fighting For Air; 09-22-2008 at 08:53 AM..
[quote=DayoftheLord;5359556][quote=Fighting For Air;5341301]
That's just silly. I had never even heard of preterism before I came to this board. The problem I have with it is that the whole concept goes against what Jesus taught. It takes away the hope that Jesus gave and cancels out His death on the cross. Calling Jesus a liar is being in danger of hellfire.[quote]
You started this thread ... now several people are calling you out to defend your position. You claim to have biblical evidence preterism is blasphemy. You claim preterism goes against what Jesus taught. You claim it cancels out his death on the cross. You claim it calls Jesus a liar.
All any of of us have asked you to do is defend your assertions and back them up. In all of the threads on this topic that you have engaged in, you never do that. You make some claims then tuck and run when someone challenges you on it.
At one point in my life, I was a die hard futurist. I am not any longer because of years of study and research on all sides of the issue. You claim to not be a futurist, but nearly every thread you start on this board is all about the "end times" and about it being just right around the corner and we all must get ready for it.
If you no longer want to engage in the debates, no problem ... God bless and I wish you the best.
When/if you are ever ready to really approach this topic with a free and open mind ... objectively analyze the evidence and leave aside your spiritual elitism ... I'd be more than happy to engage the conversation again.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Timeline issues about what?
