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Why is it you use the Bible against the very organization that put Holy Scripture together almost 400 years after Jesus's death. While the Bible is a source of Devine Revelation, it is not the only source. The Bible says it's useful, but does not declare in any form that it is the sole source of truth and moral teaching. However, it does say that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth in 1 Timoth 3:15.
Paul writes in 2 Thessalonians 2:14-17:
14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. 16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace,
17 comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.
Notice verse 15. It clearly states that Paul wishes his audience to hold to the traditions which were taught by us either by mouth or by letter. So there are traditions that were taught by word of mouth that were not written down and hence, never made it to the Bible. In addition, the last chapter of John clearly states that not everything that Jesus said or did was recorded in the Bible.
Sola Scriptura is a false premise. You, my brother, not only believe in an incomplete version of Devine Revelation, which ignores Sacred Tradition, but you also stand only on your own intrepretation without any authority to come to your conclusions.
Preterist, the most important quality of being a good Christian, bar none, is humility, which, sad to say, you seem devoid of.
It is amazing how well people who do not know me know me. According to twin.spin, I have no sense of humor. My friends would disagree. According to others I have no salvation! And according to you, I am devoid of humility.
I do not tolerate accusations made against me without details and supporting evidence, juj. Would you please clearly point out to me and to all how I rely solely on my "own interpretation without any authority?" Where specifically have I done that?
What did the people to whom Paul was writing have? Did they have the completely NT? No! Paul was an apostle and as such his oral teachings and his letters were inspired by God and later became canonized. You misunderstand the meaning of the traditions mentioned in 2 Thessalonians, juj! Paul is not talking about just any traditions but the inspired traditions given to him and to the other apostles that would eventually be organized into the canon we have today. As such, they are the ONLY "sacred" traditions to which we must hold!
A STUDY OF THE INCONSISTENT THEOLOGY OF MODERN DAY BIBLE PROPHECY by: Charlie Samples
Jonathan Williams recorded in his book, LEGIONS OF SATAN , in 1781, THAT Cornwallis revealed to Washington that a
"holy war will now begin on America, and when it is ended America will supposedly be the citadel of freedom, but her millions will unknowingly be the loyal subjects of the Crown."
Cornwallis went on to explain that what would seem to be a seem to be a contradiction:
"Your churches will be used to teach the Jews' religion and in less than two hundred years the whole nation will be working for divine world government. That government that they believe to be divine will be the British Empire. All religions will be permeated with Judaism without even being noticed by the masses, and they will all be under the invisible all-seeing eye of the Grand Architect of Freemasonry."
And indeed George Washington himself was a Mason, and he gave back through false religion what he had won with his army.
This divine world government that Cornwallis spoke of, was the religion of the New World Order. The religions of America deceive their followers into believing that there will be a one world government and it will be the fulfillment of bible prophecy. They say, however, that Jesus Christ will be the ruler.
It is amazing how well people who do not know me know me. According to twin.spin, I have no sense of humor. My friends would disagree. According to others I have no salvation! And according to you, I am devoid of humility.
I do not tolerate accusations made against me without details and supporting evidence, juj. Would you please clearly point out to me and to all how I rely solely on my "own interpretation without any authority?" Where specifically have I done that?
What did the people to whom Paul was writing have? Did they have the completely NT? No! Paul was an apostle and as such his oral teachings and his letters were inspired by God and later became canonized. You misunderstand the meaning of the traditions mentioned in 2 Thessalonians, juj! Paul is not talking about just any traditions but the inspired traditions given to him and to the other apostles that would eventually be organized into the canon we have today. As such, they are the ONLY "sacred" traditions to which we must hold!
Preterist
The are many traditions recorded by our early Church Fathers like confessing to priests, baptizing babies (I think there might be some loose verses on that one), terms like trinity, Apostolic succession and the Catholic authority hierarchy that never made it to the Bible. You say that all the traditions Paul said to pass on was recorded. How do you know that? The Bible even states that not everything was recorded, yet you are certain that all traditions were recorded in the Bible. The writings as the Early Church contain many traditions that are in practice today and yet can't find them anywhere in the Bible. You think since the Catholics deliberated, compiled, and canonized the Bible, they might know what went into it. That's the humility I am talking about. Holy Scripture was inspired by the Holy Spirit, but written down by ordinary men who apparently never read what their hands were creating, nor did they understand it? But you do. I am sure glad you are here. We would all be so lost.
The foundation of your entire argument is based on your or your organization's position of the current state of Jesus. The Early Church whose folks were among those that walked with Jesus and/or walked with the Apostles. These are the folks that had the closesness to Jesus and the truths and traditions. I believe these good folks, and because of their proximity of time and space knew what the heck they were talking about since they were there. This is what I consider authority. Not a guy from the 21 Century who picks up a Bible and jumps up and says, those early Church guys don't know they are talking about. It don't matter who they knew or who taught them what they know. You excuse all the Early Church Fathers teachings and traditions as blasphemous, and the following of which, will only result in damnation.
Let's take a quick look at just using the Bible as our only source for truth. Since the 1500's, many splintering groups started using the Bible as the only source of truth. What was the trajectory of that decision? Since then the Protestant world has broken up into over 32,000 pieces, which your group is one little part of. Can all these, mostly good intentioned, people be correct? They all are using the Bible as their source of truth. So who is right and who is wrong? Jesus created one truth and one Church. Not some mystical organizationless loosely associated clump of human debris called Christianity, but a real Church with Peter as it first head because He knew that if you didn't have teaching authority, the result would be today's Protestant world, a divisive and chaotic group of organizations who split from each other sometimes because of the most minor of details. Jesus's intention was unity involving his universal Truth of good living, obediency to God, and salvation. That one truth and tradition is still available today in the Roman Catholic Church.
And what did I read a few posts earlier, about your group and it's unending string of false prophesies? The old testament punishment for being a false prophet was death. They just had to be wrong once, and you guys have been wrong how many times? yikes....
Preterist,
Do you not have any humor? The sign over the door is a common inter-denominational joke.....
Are you the offical preterist spoke person? If you would read in CONTEXT, I was just accusing you (using your words), not all preterists. But whom am I to tell you about CONTEXT
As far as putting the challange to me, presenting scripture that could enlighten you.
There is none. You and I don't belief in the same Jesus. You deny the physical ressurection of the dead...just like "the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection" Your Jesus is dead, mine is alive.
Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God
But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
The living Jesus who will raise all, that I believe in, will prove it to you, either at your death, and\or at world ends.
And that my friend is the fundemental differance between us and why you find little takers in your posts.
No, twin.spin, you do not have to tell me about context. I did understand your context--you said "PRETERIST(S), did you not?
I am sorry that you think we do not believe in the same Jesus. Mine is the Son of God--fully man and fully God--Who left His glory which He had eternally with the Father and became a man so that He might take the place of sinful men and save His own from their sins. I am one of those sinners saved by His grace. In spite of such a testimony and in spite of knowing me besides what you "see" on this message board, you and DOTL feel qualified to judge my relationship with Him!
While He walked this earth, He promised His disciples that He would return to THEM (Mat. 14; Mat. 16; Mat. 24; John 14, etc.). His apostles taught that very same thing--expecting Him to return to THEM in their lifetimes (2 Thessalonians 4, James 5:8; John 1:1; 3; 22:6, 10, etc.).
When did I say my Jesus is dead? Never, twin.spin. That is a false accusation. Jesus is most certainly alive and reigning from His throne in heaven. Also, simply because I deny your concept of the nature of the resurrection, does not mean that I deny the resurrection! The Sadducees, with whom you erroneously equate preterists in this regard, deny any resurrection of any kind! Preterism does NOT teach that!
You misunderstand the meaning of 1 Corinthians 15 and 2 Thessalonians 4 as physical bodies popping up out of their graves at some supposed end of time. Because many preterists believe this to be a very REAL but spiritual event affecting a literal but nonphysical body and that the physical body was never meant to enter the kingdom (flesh and blood cannot inherit it), they are wrongly label heretics. We disagree on the nature of the resurrection, twin.spin, and not on the reality of it. It is unfair and unjustified to accuse preterists of denying the resurrection. That is simply not true!
What "Jesus" are you accusing me of believing in, twin.spin? Why do futurists always have to resort to such hateful, unjustified accusations instead of dealing with the issues. Have you ever really tried to understand what preterists are saying before you accuse them of not believing in "your" Jesus or of denying the resurrection?
Paul, when before Felix, the governor, said "There is about to be a resurrection" (Acts 24:15). What did he mean, twin.spin? What did Jesus mean when He said to Martha--"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die" (John 11:23). Isn't Jesus contradicting Himself here. We die but we don't die? The body dies and returns to the earth from where it came--but WE live and WE never die! Notice 1 Corinthians 15--that which is eternal is changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye--mortality puts on immortality; corruption puts on incorruption; the natural puts on the spiritual. Is not the body sown a natural body but raised a spiritual body? Does not Paul clearly teach that? Then why do you find fault when Preterists who take him at his inspired word? Why is taking Paul's words at faced value condemned by such as yourself as heresy? What is the context of this passage?
Please clearly understand where others are coming from before you make accusations.
The are many traditions recorded by our early Church Fathers like confessing to priests, baptizing babies (I think there might be some loose verses on that one), terms like trinity, Apostolic succession and the Catholic authority hierarchy that never made it to the Bible.
But do all these traditions that you mention really harmonize with the scriptures? That was the distinction Jesus made between the Jews at that time who were following their own man made traditions.
I don't agree with Preterists views, or yours as a Catholic for that matter. BUT since we are all here in the 21st century, all we are able to go on is history and interpreting the scriptures. The Catholic Church is not the authority when it comes to the bible. You may have faith but you don't know for sure how much your "church fathers" stayed true or veered from the original teachings. Really, would Jesus approve of his church participating in pagan holidays? Would Jesus approve of people bowing down to the pope and kissing his ring?
Thank goodness the message in the bible is guided and protected by God's Holy Spirit, not the Catholic Church.
The are many traditions recorded by our early Church Fathers like confessing to priests, baptizing babies (I think there might be some loose verses on that one), terms like trinity, Apostolic succession and the Catholic authority hierarchy that never made it to the Bible. You say that all the traditions Paul said to pass on was recorded. How do you know that? The Bible even states that not everything was recorded, yet you are certain that all traditions were recorded in the Bible. The writings as the Early Church contain many traditions that are in practice today and yet can't find them anywhere in the Bible. You think since the Catholics deliberated, compiled, and canonized the Bible, they might know what went into it. That's the humility I am talking about. Holy Scripture was inspired by the Holy Spirit, but written down by ordinary men who apparently never read what their hands were creating, nor did they understand it? But you do. I am sure glad you are here. We would all be so lost.
The foundation of your entire argument is based on your or your organization's position of the current state of Jesus. The Early Church whose folks were among those that walked with Jesus and/or walked with the Apostles. These are the folks that had the closesness to Jesus and the truths and traditions. I believe these good folks, and because of their proximity of time and space knew what the heck they were talking about since they were there. This is what I consider authority. Not a guy from the 21 Century who picks up a Bible and jumps up and says, those early Church guys don't know they are talking about. It don't matter who they knew or who taught them what they know. You excuse all the Early Church Fathers teachings and traditions as blasphemous, and the following of which, will only result in damnation.
Let's take a quick look at just using the Bible as our only source for truth. Since the 1500's, many splintering groups started using the Bible as the only source of truth. What was the trajectory of that decision? Since then the Protestant world has broken up into over 32,000 pieces, which your group is one little part of. Can all these, mostly good intentioned, people be correct? They all are using the Bible as their source of truth. So who is right and who is wrong? Jesus created one truth and one Church. Not some mystical organizationless loosely associated clump of human debris called Christianity, but a real Church with Peter as it first head because He knew that if you didn't have teaching authority, the result would be today's Protestant world, a divisive and chaotic group of organizations who split from each other because of the most minor of details. Jesus's intention was unity involving his universal Truth of good living, obediency to God, and salvation. That one truth and tradition is still available today in the Roman Catholic Church.
And what did I read a few posts earlier, about your group and it's unending string of false prophesies? The old testament punishment for being a false prophet was death. They just had to be wrong once, and you guys have been wrong how many times? yikes....
Peace be with you.
Do not judge the sufficiency and the truthfulness of the Bible by the sinful misinterpretations of it!
You take great pride (a lack of humility I might add!) in YOUR "church's" unity of beliefs. But unity of beliefs is not the criteria for truth--it is the beliefs themselves against the truths of God's Word that either affirm their truthfulness or deny their truthfulness.
I do not care to converse with someone who makes such statements as this: "Jesus created one truth and one Church. Not some mystical organizationless loosely associated clump of human debris called Christianity."
You have your reward, juj, in this life in your man-made "church" of Roman Catholicism and its man-made traditions. There are millions upon millions of you falsely trusting in an organization and not in the Christ of the Bible. But remember this:
"There is a way that SEEMS right to a man, but its end is the way of death" (Proverbs. 14:12).
Jesus taught His disciples, saying: "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the way and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it" (Mat. 7:13, 14).
But do all these traditions that you mention really harmonize with the scriptures? That was the distinction Jesus made between the Jews at that time who were following their own man made traditions.
I don't agree with Preterists views, or yours as a Catholic for that matter. BUT since we are all here in the 21st century, all we are able to go on is history and interpreting the scriptures. The Catholic Church is not the authority when it comes to the bible. You may have faith but you don't know for sure how much your "church fathers" stayed true or veered from the original teachings. Really, would Jesus approve of his church participating in pagan holidays? Would Jesus approve of people bowing down to the pope and kissing his ring?
Thank goodness the message in the bible is guided and protected by God's Holy Spirit, not the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church is not protected by the Holy Spirit? ....Matthew 16:18 .....and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Now it doesn't say Holy Spirit specifically, but why would Jesus create an unprotected unholy organization to create the HOLY Bible. Doesn't make a lot sense to me.
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of Me. (Jn 5:39)
If ever a religous bunch needed to be reminded...
The one that created the mouth can speak; if you don't live by the Vine, you don't live. I love the bible, but if I had to choose between it and the Lord...?
The Catholic Church is not protected by the Holy Spirit? ....Matthew 16:18 .....and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Now it doesn't say Holy Spirit specifically, but why would Jesus create an unprotected unholy organization to create the HOLY Bible. Doesn't make a lot sense to me.
Is it? Are you sure?
How would Jesus feel about his church partaking in holidays rooted in pagan traditions? How would Jesus feel about a human man allowing people to kiss his ring and bow down to him?
What did Jesus teach his followers about God, and about God's kingdom? Have those teachings continued in the Catholic Church?
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