Another reply to my brother Joe against my beliefs (trinity, atheist, salvation)

[Fundamentalist]

Spm62 I asked you a question. You like to ridicules other interpretations in a very rude, condescending manner I might add so one must ask what is your background, where does your teaching come from who are you subjected under?

[spm62]

Originally Posted by spm62

Unlike you, I am not afraid of the truth. Unlike you, I have no problem talking about and discussing scripture. That is what makes your nonunderstanding of scripture and God`s word obvious to all. You are one of those who post scripture that you think supports your doctrine, then when the light is shown on those scriptures you move to another one. All the while ,unable to answer scripture that totally exposes your belief as false. Will you still continue to ignore scripture that you can`t defend. I hope so. Because your silence on those scriptures speak louder than any church spin you can come up with.
john 3:16-18

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

"Life is found through Jesus, the lamb slain ,FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. That is how much God loves his creation. There is no other way but through belief in Jesus. Everyone must believe in him to have life."

17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

"Jesus came not to judge the world, but to SAVE the WORLD." (That`s the part you don`t seem to believe)


18 he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The bible talks about different kinds of judgment. You are born into this world already under judgement through Adam. Only through Christ ( the second Adam) can you escape this judgment. So ,in other words, you are under judgment UNTIL you believe on Christ.

Now, let me ask again.
Do you believe Jesus is the savior of ALL me,expecially those that believe?
Do you think it is God`s will that ALL be saved.
Do you think it would pleasure God to save ALL of his creation?
What say you? Or will you remain silent in the face of the truth?

[JamesMRohde]

Originally Posted by Omahabound

The fact that you rely on inflammatory rhetoric, "The Supreme Torturer," shows that you're not here for a serious dialogue and until you are, we needn't talk, mkay?

Unbelievably thick! You insist on God as an infinite being who intentionally chooses to ceaselessly torture in literal flames for ever and, because I call such a one The Supreme Torturer, which is what He would truthfully be, my words are too much "inflammatory rhetoric?!" Rhetoric versus infinite torture! Get it?!

And what a pretence for avoiding the real issue: I'm not serious?! You can be sure I am as serious about the truth of God as I know how to be! When will you face in all seriousness what your doctrine actually says and causes its believers to do?

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by spm62

Now, let me ask again.
Do you believe Jesus is the savior of ALL me,expecially those that believe?
Do you think it is God`s will that ALL be saved.
Do you think it would pleasure God to save ALL of his creation?
What say you? Or will you remain silent in the face of the truth?

I'll answer that. YES! but nothing in there indicates ALL go to heaven.

[spm62]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

Spm62 I asked you a question. You like to ridicules other interpretations in a very rude, condescending manner I might add so one must ask what is your background, where does your teaching come from who are you subjected under?

Well fundy, I have noticed that others have accused you of the same thing as far as being closed minded and answering in a self righteous condescending tone, so I find your statement amusing. I only answer others in the way they post. If they post in a condescending way, I return the favor. Since that is the way you post the majority of the time, that is how I answer most of your post. You`ll notice in the post with omaha that I responded to, he posted to someone in a condescending tone and so that`s how I post to him. My background, I believed as you did for over 40 years. Grew up in the church, went to church 3 days a week. Parents born again,fundamentilist, sunday school teachers etc. Went on all the bowling and roller skating church trips as a kid. Church camps in the summer. Know the fundy way inside and out. My social life all revolved around the church etc. But I had nagging questions that the church could not answer. The church theology is full of holes and
I know there is only one truth. After much searching,praying and studying I came to believe that God will do what he set out to do. That he will restore his creation. God finally opened my eyes for good through a forum just like this one. I already started believing it but it is hard to let go of what you have been taught all of your life. IT is hard to think that people you love and trust don`t have the truth. That what I was hearing was not of God. But I only wanted the truth and prayed daily for it. I knew that it wasn`t blasphemy to want the truth. I searched different view points and compared then to scripture. On that forum, there was a debate, much like what goes on here. The church followers could not refute scriptures that were being given by people who believed in God`s restoration. Oh ,they tried, just like here. They repeated the same ole standard church lines that I had grown up with. Much like here, the church just keeps posting scripture but has a hard time responding. I finally couldn`t deny it any longer. It made God`s word so harmonous. Everything became clear.The questions were answered. I understand that you don`t believe as I do. I`ve been there. I have believed exactly like you. Even debated just like you. But God has brought me into the light and ALL to him I owe. Through nothing I did or earned. Not because I`m wiser or smarter or more deserving, he just does it. He just opened my eyes just like he has others and just like he will everyone else. No more, no less.

[JamesMRohde]

If, as has already been suggested on this thread, you don't read our posts lest you be contaminatied (I thought it was because they were too long), I'm wondering why I should work to reason together with you...Either you didn't read it in it's context (of answering your accusation of those who maintain with the apostle James that "the end of the Lord is mercy" do so because they love to sin), or you simply aren't anwering it for embarassment, so, from my post #117, here it is again:

"And not only in the context of this discussion of the view of a triumphant eschatology, let me say something about people so easily accusing others of liking sin or not really wanting to stop sinning when they stumble, and sometimes repeatedly. It's one more Satanic dart to be overcome. I know how it hurts when with all your heart you don't want to sin. You hate it; yet, seem inexplicably the slave to it when a little before you were praising God with all sincerity. People don't know what they're talking about concerning many of these things. I'd like any of you to explain how to never do any act of sin again. I searched for years for the answer to this. Just try to find something written about, "How to Stop Sinning," and even harder, that actually delivers the goods and enables as promised! How rare it is indeed! I know the answer, so you can't put one over on me. I just want to find out who knows something so basic. Put your money where your mouth is, so to speak."

[spm62]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

I'll answer that. YES! but nothing in there indicates ALL go to heaven.

Well, the bible says God`s will shall be done. It also says ALL his pleasure he shall do. So there you go.If he is the savior of ALL men and you believe that, well good. I`m glad you believe he is the savior of ALL and not just some. Praise God.

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by spm62

Well fundy, I have noticed that others have accused you of the same thing as far as being closed minded and answering in a self righteous condescending tone, so I find your statement amusing. I only answer others in the way they post. If they post in a condescending way, I return the favor. Since that is the way you post the majority of the time, that is how I answer most of your post. You`ll notice in the post with omaha that I responded to, he posted to someone in a condescending tone and so that`s how I post to him. My background, I believed as you did for over 40 years. Grew up in the church, went to church 3 days a week. Parents born again,fundamentilist, sunday school teachers etc. Went on all the bowling and roller skating church trips as a kid. Church camps in the summer. Know the fundy way inside and out. My social life all revolved around the church etc. But I had nagging questions that the church could not answer. The church theology is full of holes and
I know there is only one truth. After much searching,praying and studying I came to believe that God will do what he set out to do. That he will restore his creation. God finally opened my eyes for good through a forum just like this one. I already started believing it but it is hard to let go of what you have been taught all of your life. IT is hard to think that people you love and trust don`t have the truth. That what I was hearing was not of God. But I only wanted the truth and prayed daily for it. I knew that it wasn`t blasphemy to want the truth. I searched different view points and compared then to scripture. On that forum, there was a debate, much like what goes on here. The church followers could not refute scriptures that were being given by people who believed in God`s restoration. Oh ,they tried, just like here. They repeated the same ole standard church lines that I had grown up with. Much like here, the church just keeps posting scripture but has a hard time responding. I finally couldn`t deny it any longer. It made God`s word so harmonous. Everything became clear.The questions were answered. I understand that you don`t believe as I do. I`ve been there. I have believed exactly like you. Even debated just like you. But God has brought me into the light and ALL to him I owe. Through nothing I did or earned. Not because I`m wiser or smarter or more deserving, he just does it. He just opened my eyes just like he has others and just like he will everyone else. No more, no less.

That may be that I am close minded even condescending but you know the addage, you get what you give. You are civil with me then I am civil right back.

So basically you didn't like the concept of doctrines and hell and you went searching for a "different" truth that you liked? I know you think I am twisting what you said but that is how I see it since I myself believe I have the truth by the way I had once stopped believing in hell myself so that unable to let go hell argument won't work with me. We both can't be right, there is one truth so one of us is wrong. My question to you is, what if you are wrong? You see it is a win win situation for me not you.

People don't like the idea of authority so they created their own by using the "Spirit" to guide them and then twisting scripture to fit their truth. We can make up anything from the bible. There is a right way to practice theology and universalist do it the wrong way by first throwing authority out the window because rules are too regimented and doesn't allow you to "experience" the spirit. Universalist practice the "gospel of rationalization" You bring God to your level, if it is something you can't understand or agree with or think it is bad then it can not be of God. You say, we can't answer the question sufficiently, that may be because we can't know everything as we are human but then universalist do the extreme, reading things in verses that isn't there thus speaking for God. There are some things that are just unknowable but to fill in the blanks is just wrong.

[JamesMRohde]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

I know you think I am twisting what you said but that is how I see it since I myself believe I have the truth...

So you admit you aren't dealing honestly with what he actually said, but are restating it to serve your own purposes!

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

People don't like the idea of authority so they created their own by using the "Spirit" to guide them and then twisting scripture to fit their truth. I am sorry but you can see anything from the bible. There is a right way to practice theology and universalist do it the wrong way by first throwing authority out the window because rules are too regimented and doesn't allow you to "experience" the spirit.

The Holy Scriptures (which were given in Hebrew and Greek) are the authority. Many times numerous passages have been brought forth that definitely state, "Jesus is the Savior of all." You are falsely accusing and creating a straw man.

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

Universalist practice the "gospel of rationalization" You bring God to your level, if it is something you can't understand or agree with or think it is bad then it can not be of God.

It is Scripture itself that we seek to understand for what it says, rejecting what it does not say. When the teaching of other men around us doesn't agree with what is written what is the best course of action?

[JamesMRohde]

The form in which I found the following passages it was asked of the reader to read each out loud and say whether he believed it was true or false and say so out loud. That is a good idea to find out how your conscience testifys.

Abundant and easily understood are the promises of salvation not limited to men. All, all the world, all flesh, all things, all that I (God) have made, all creation, every creature, every living thing, enemies . . . all these God assures us He will save. Does any of this apply to these hypothetical serpents seed, tares, cainites? Though you may find a way to dispose of certain of these irreversible words of God, the bulk remains, a testimony of God's sure salvation for all that is, not merely mankind:

"The Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world." (1 John 4:14)

Jesus is "the Christ, the Savior of the world." (John 4:42)

Jesus "is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

Jesus "did not come to judge the world but to save the WORLD." (John 12:47)

"Jesus, was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for EVERYONE." (Heb. 2:9)

"With God NOTHING is impossible." (Luke 1:37)

"At the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:10:11)

"God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself ALL THINGS on earth or in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation." (Col. 1:19, 21, 22)

In Jesus Christ is "the restoration of ALL THINGS, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began." (Acts 3:21)

God appointed Jesus "heir of ALL THINGS, and through whom He made the universe." (Heb. 1:2)

"As God gave Jesus authority over ALL FLESH, that he should give eternal life to as many as God gave Him." (John 17:2) The Father "has given ALL THINGS into Jesus' hands." (John 13:3)

Jesus is "able even to subdue ALL THINGS to Himself." (Phil. 3:21)

Jesus came "that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times he might gather together in one ALL THINGS in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works ALL THINGS according to the counsel of His will." (Eph. 1:10, 11)

"The Bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives Life to the WORLD." (John 6:33)

Jesus commanded us to be like Himself and His Father: "Love your enemies, bless those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you that you may be sons of your Father in heaven." (Matt. 5:44, 45)

"Creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope, because creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." (Rom. 8:20, 21)

"The Father loves the Son and has given ALL THINGS into His hands." (John 3:35)

Jesus "is the image of the invisible God, the first born over ALL CREATION. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him." (Co. 1:15, 16)

We are not to "repay evil for evil." (Rom. 12:17

"If anyone's work which he has built endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:14, 15)

"Of Him and through Him and to Him are ALL THINGS, to whom be glory forever. Amen" (Rom. 11:36)

"Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for ALL, and therefore all died." (2 Cor. 5:14)

"When God's judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the WORLD will learn righteousness." (Isaiah 26:9)

"Mercy shall TRIUMPH OVER (exalt over) judgment." (James 2:13)

"Where sin abounded, grace abounded much more." (Rom. 5:20)

"EVERY CREATURE which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever." (Rev. 5:13)

God's "mercy endures forever." (1 Chron. 16:34)

God's Spirit "will be poured out on ALL FLESH." (Joel 2:28)

"The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and ALL FLESH shall see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken." (Isaiah 40:5)

God will "open His hand and satisfy the desire of EVERY living thing." (Psalm 145:16)

God is "gracious in ALL His works." (Psalm 145:17)

"The EARTH is the Lord's and ALL its fullness, the world and those who dwell therein." (Psalm 24:1)

God "reveals Himself by those who did not ask for Him: He was found by those who did not seek Him." (Isaiah 65:1)

"The Lord is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and great in mercy. The Lord is good to ALL, and His tender mercies are over ALL His works. ALL your works shall praise you, 0 Lord." (Psalm 145:8-10)

"0 You Who hear prayer, to you ALL flesh will come. Iniquities prevail against me; as for our transgressions, you will provide atonement for them." (Psalm 65:2-4)

"Through the greatness of your power your enemies shall submit themselves to you. ALL the earth shall worship You and sing praises to you." (Psalm 66:3, 4)

"There is no God besides Me, a just God and Savior; There is none besides Me. Look to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath." (Isaiah 45:21-23)