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trettep i am not going to get drawn into foolish arguments about how God conforms us to his image . I believe God works in us both to will and to do of his good please , this can take on many forms from destroying (He's the husbandsman) to building up(He's the Vine) . The fact of the matter is Jesus rebuked James and John because they wanted to destroy life.
pcamps, I dont' think it is foolishness on how God conforms us to the image of His Son. James and John were rebuked because they wanted to destroy according to spirit of a man and not according to the Spirit of God.
Probably true, similar to Paul with A&S or the man turned of to Satan for destruction of the flesh. In that case His intent was not like the disciples.
That is my what I'm saying. (I thought it was Peter with A&S? - I look it up).
Yeah, it's a difficult question. Do you see any other options besides what I listed?
Another thought I had. We get in our heads that Elijah was righteous because He was a prophet and a man of God. And since he called down fire from heaven and it came, then that's even more proof he was righteous. But in Romans we read that governments and men are ordained of God as intruments of God's wrath if we do evil, yet that proves nothing about their righteousness and some of them might be downright evil. So does Elijah's successful calling fire down from heaven really prove that he himself was doing righteousness? Just a thought.
TKC to be honest i don't know . I know there is a clear explanation that ties these OT acts with the NT acts. What i do not want to find myself doing is striving over it to understand it.
pcamps, I dont' think it is foolishness on how God conforms us to the image of His Son. James and John were rebuked because they wanted to destroy according to spirit of a man and not according to the Spirit of God.
Paul
I don't think i said i did , well i did not mean to imply that . As much as God destroys he builds up , so i am not going to box the Holy Spirit into a doctrine in how he deals with us .
TKC to be honest i don't know . I know there is a clear explanation that ties these OT acts with the NT acts. What i do not want to find myself doing is striving over it to understand it.
I don't think i said i did , well i did not mean to imply that . As much as God destroys he builds up , so i am not going to box the Holy Spirit into a doctrine in how he deals with us .
"I am not going to box the Holy Spirit into a doctrine in how he deals with us".
Becuase the disicples had no such good intent to raise them up. The intent was evil.
But they said just like Elijah DID, so if Elijah knew God was going to raise them back up so to must have the disciples.
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Sorry Scott but that does not stand up to the smallest amount of scrutiny.
1. God could easly stop them without taking away their supposed free will and God did so throughout scriptures. For example, God freed the disciples from prison against the will of those who imprisoned them without taking away anyone's suppose free will. God simply thwarted their plans by sending an angel to open the jail.
Setting someone free is not against their will, I would imagine everyone in person wants to be free. And God did not take away the freewill of the people how imprisoned them, they freely put them in prison by their will. God wants everyone free brother and will work to do so without taking away their freewill.
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Another example. Christ could have called down angels to thwart the plans of those who wanted to crucify him.
Yes that shows Christ had freewill
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2. God also forcibly violates what people want to do throughout scripture. For example, God forcibly took away Neb.'s kingdom because he refused to deal justly with his people. God forcibly sent Israel into captivity. Both examples, against their wills.
No He didn’t they were free to do as they will, but God judgment will always ensue. They rejected God by their freewill and God simply judged them according to their choices.
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3. A pedophile free wills to rape a young child. The child free wills not to be raped. Why would God choose to honor the free will of the rapist but not the child?
God never took away the child’s freewill, the pedophile did.
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Why doesn't God send the equivalent of a big fish to swallow up the rapist and save the child? Surely Jonah did not desire to be swallowed by a fish.
There are always consequence to our freewill choices brother, life or death. Many a person makes the choice of death and God gives them exactly what they chose.
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4. Not all evil is "free willed" by man. e.g. natural disasters
Who says God is responsible for natural disasters?Scripture tell us God is NOT in the strong wind, NOT in the earthquake, NOT in the fire, but in the still small voice
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All you're doing is giving a supposed reason or excuse for God choosing for evil to occur. The reason you're giving is free will.
No I am not doing that at all brother, I don’t believe in blaming God for all the bad things I have done in my life. Adam tried to blame God also brother and God would have none of that but judged Adam for what Adam did, not for what God made Adam do.
I am going to speak plainly here brother, I sometime wonder if some (not all) refuse to believe in freewill because they have unrepentant sin in their lives and as long as they believe God made them sin they have no need of repenting, after all it is God directing their step to sin.
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I also believe there is a reason, but a different reason.
While speak up brother, what other reason do you believe I have.
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I'm not aware of the "whole of humanity" idea you are referring to or how it relates to Cain so I don't know how to answer that. Also, I didn't mean what you are referring to is not true (I don't even understnad what you are referring to) I meant that even if it is true then still I would see the "two shall become one flesh" as a reference to marriage since that is what Christ related it to.
That's Ok it was a little off topic anyway, I was just trying to show God created more people than just Adam and Eve, Cain's wife being one.
Pneuma, think about the question you asked. You asked why it alright for one and not the other and then you say you don't buy it. What don't you buy? The fact remains that it was alright for Elijah to bring fire down from heaven and it was not alright for the disciples to. Is that not the fact? If not then why not?
Paul
It was aright for Elijah because Elijah brought down God Holy fire of baptisem, not a litteral fire which was what John and the boys wanted.
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