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"For the Almighty sets in motion even in the innermost hearts of men the movement of their will, so that He does through their agency whatsoever He wishes to perform through them—even He who knows not how to will anything in unrighteousness."
Paul
Paul if you are going to qoute the fathers to us please qoute it all, not just peaces from here and there because I could easily do that also and make them say something they are not really saying.
I do see your point Bob and it does not make any sense with your conclusions.
Could Adam NOT have eaten from the tree? Yes or no.
Your stance is NO Adam had to eat because God planned for Adam to eat; therefore, Adam did not have a choice.
I do not contend that brother, I am the one who has been saying all along Man has a choice and God responds to the choice man makes.
You have been saying man has a choice, but could NOT choose life because he was earthy. Therefore, man does not really have a choice.
Did Adam have God working within his heart to walk in His statutes?
If yes, how come Adam did not obey His command not to eat?
Are you going to say because Adam made the choice not to obey His commandment?
If so than how is it you see that God planned out Adams disobedience and no choice of Adams could change that plan?
Two trees were in the midst of the garden correct?
Did Adam have the ability to choose from the tree of life or could he only choose to eat from the tree OKOGE?
I believe scripture says he could eat freely from the tree of life, but you are saying he could not eat from the tree of life because that is not what God planned for him to do.
You believe God planned for Adam to eat, planned for Adam to be disobedient, which than makes God putting the tree of life in the midst of the garden and telling Adam he could freely eat of it null and void because Adam could not choose to do anything other than he did, which was to be disobedient to God.
Which than makes choice null and void.
These are analogous:
Adam : Child
Earthy : Curious
Chose to eat : Chose to explore
Neither had any choice about being made earthy or curious.
So you either contend that a curious child is able to forever resist exploring, or you contend that a curious child can not make choices.
No Adam & Eve were not strong enough to resist eating the TOKGE and not strong enough to eat the TOL. The natural man can not receive the things of God. First the natural. Adam. Witnessed by the fact that 10 billion people who were given commandments + free will did not eat the TOL, just as 10 billion curious children have explored. Jesus said many will strive to enter the narrow gate but not be strong enough. They are wanting to eat the TOL, wishing to eat the TOL, trying to eat the TOL, yet they will simply not be able.
If God says I will give you a new heart and I will cause you to obey, it is certain that those people will obey God, yet they will also choose to obey God. Uncertainty is not a prerequisite for choosing. God is certain about every choice that will ever be made.
God had not yet given Adam a new heart, otherwise Adam would have obeyed per Ezekiel.
If all Adam needed was God's commandment + free will to eat the TOL then that's all you need. And you have the commandment. So all you need now to be saved is free will. I believe man needs a new heart from God.
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 08-15-2009 at 10:23 AM..
Paul if you are going to qoute the fathers to us please qoute it all, not just peaces from here and there because I could easily do that also and make them say something they are not really saying.
I highly suggest you read that. Probably the best read I have seen anywhere on the topic of free will.
Obviously, you notice after you read it that I didn't make a verse say anything that was not inline with the document.
To give you a clue - here are couple chapter titles:
Chapter 41 [XX.]— The Wills of Men are So Much in the Power of God, that He Can Turn Them Whithersoever It Pleases Him.
Chapter 42 [XXI]— God Does Whatsoever He Wills in the Hearts of Even Wicked Men.
Paul
Yes, that's an excellent writing on grace & free will, well almost, except where he tries (and fails) to explain why God won't save all. He is using a definition of "free will" that I can agree with.
Yes, that's an excellent writing on grace & free will, well almost, except where he tries (and fails) to explain why God won't save all. He is using a definition of "free will" that I can agree with.
I'm not sure where you get that part that says that he explains that God won't save all.
I know he has other writings that are associated with non-universalist views but I was just interested because I had never recalled one in this document. I find it odd that he can have a non-universalist view givin his viewpoints expressed in the Free Will document. I just wonder if some writings have been altered or mis-applied to his authorship.
Adam : Child
Earthy : Curious
Chose to eat : Chose to explore
Neither had any choice about being made earthy or curious.
We are not talking about whether man had a choice about how he was made, we are talking about man having a choices AFTER he was made.
We have both agreed that man was not created with anything evil or sinful in him.
Quote:
So you either contend that a curious child is able to forever resist exploring, or you contend that a curious child can not make choices.
Yes a child is able to resist temptation, Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
Quote:
No Adam & Eve were not strong enough to resist eating the TOKGE and not strong enough to eat the TOL.
Resist the devil and he will flee from you, What you are saying is that they were not strong enough to resist the devil even though the tree of life was present with them.
Quote:
The natural man can not receive the things of God. First the natural. Adam.
Yes Adam was created a natural man of the earth earthy, but God took Adam and placed him in a heavenly sphere (the garden) in order that the natural man might be made spiritual (given a new heart), and for this purpose God placed before him the commandment “thou shalt not”.
How is it one becomes spiritual brother? Is it not by obeying the VOICE of God?
Quote:
Witnessed by the fact that 10 billion people who were given commandments + free will did not eat the TOL, just as 10 billion curious children have explored. Jesus said many will strive to enter the narrow gate but not be strong enough. They are wanting to eat the TOL, wishing to eat the TOL, trying to eat the TOL, yet they will simply not be able.
And the reason they are not able to is because they refuse to obey the voice of God.
Many seek to come unto Godsome other way, but it is only through obedience to Himwill they find the strait gate.
Do you remember in the days of Moses how the people tried to enter Canaanwithout the ark wherein is contained the law (commandments)and were unable?
Tis the same thing brother, many seek to enter into the kingdom of heaven without being obedient to God.
There is NO other way unto God except by OBEDIENCE. Jesus came to show us the way, and He did by strict obedience to everything God commanded of Him.
Quote:
If God says I will give you a new heart and I will cause you to obey, it is certain that those people will obey God, yet they will also choose to obey God.
Yes it is certain that those people will choose to obey God. Why? Because the COMMANDMENTS will be written within their heart.
Quote:
God had not yet given Adam a new heart, otherwise Adam would have obeyed per Ezekiel.
God was in the process of giving Adam a new heart, that is what the garden experience is all about, and if Adam had of obeyed God’s voice he would have put on immortality and never entered into death.
Do you believe that we CANNOT be obedient to God right now?
Matthew 19:17
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 14:15
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:21
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Brother it is those who KEEP His commandments that He manifest Himself unto.
Quote:
If all Adam needed was God's commandment + free will to eat the TOL then that's all you need. And you have the commandment. So all you need now to be saved is free will. I believe man needs a new heart from God.
I know he has other writings that are associated with non-universalist views but I was just interested because I had never recalled one in this document. I find it odd that he can have a non-universalist view givin his viewpoints expressed in the Free Will document. I just wonder if some writings have been altered or mis-applied to his authorship.
Paul
Well than how do you know he wrote the one on freewill?
Co-Savior Theology is the term I used to describe any doctrine whereby someone believes that in order to be saved it requires your own choice to accept Jesus Christ as savior.
This is a theology that is contrary to God's Word. Is your theology - co-savior theology?
Paul
It IS a persons choice to accept/recieve Christ as Saviour and make him Lord of your life as Romans 10;8-12 specifically indicates how. What I would call 'Co-Saviour Theology' is Roman Catholicism whereby it takes Christ ""PLUS"" something/someone extraneous . An example would be :
Mary can save, doing good works are efficacous toward ones eternal salvation, doing penances can expiate/erase sins , relying on Purgatory to clean One up of residual sins leftover after death , trusting in other faithful Catholics good works contributions into a common 'Treasury Pot' for the living to draw from to help get saved (CCC1477) , and other alleged ways.....all of which are not true . Nothing but the blood of Jesus saves...him alone , and nothing else can help. (Eph. 1:7) . In fact, its a slap in Christs face to think you can contribute toward your own salvation . Regards.
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