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Jesus already said what He would do!!! So, is it our fault for pointing out what God says in His Word, Jesus is the one saying that He will send those out of His sight, not us. We didn't get together and make it up, sorry, if it goes against what you want to be. There are scriptures on top of scriptures that says what God is doing to do, but I take it you don't want to hear that.
WWJD:
Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Are you saying that Jesus will not do this?
Or are you mad at Jesus for saying this?
Luke 13:22-28, that they will not be able to get in.
Am I attacking UR, by simply posting what is in the bible? If I added my version, then ok, but I see what it says.
Verna, no your verses do not attack UR. People have different views on these verses, even in the UR camp.
No, no one is saying that Jesus will not do this.
No, no one is mad at Jesus for saying this.
Matt 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
It is clear Jesus will do this. What is not clear if this is the final destiny for those who are sent away. Note verse 21, only he who does the will of the Father can enter. Have you considered that people will be eventually changed so that they all do the will of the Father? It is God's love that leads a person to repent, which will bring them into the will of the Father.
Furthermore, what is the "kingdom of heaven" talking about? If you study the meaning of "kingdom" there, you will realize this is talking about reigning with Christ. Some bibles translate it as "reign of the heavens". It is quite true that not everyone will reign with Christ. Those who are told to depart will not be reigning with Him - instead they will be subjects of the Kingdom
Matt 8:12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
But realize that those who reign with Christ have a special purpose - they will be judges, kings, priests, and ministers. Ask yourself who they will be reigning over, who will they be preaching too?
Verna, if you could read this article, it would be much benefit to the discussion:
--
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I (Jesus) give power over the nations: And he shall rule (POIMANO) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
The word "poimano" means to rule...but as a shepherd rules over a flock, a shepherd who feeds them. The duty of "poimano" given to the church (in pastoring the Body of Christ) is the same "poimano" given to the overcomer over the nations.
Did you realize that God is choosing very few people, who have been faithful to the end, to inherit His reign for the purpose of becoming PASTORS to the entire world? Just as God chooses shepherds (pastors) in the Body of Christ, God will be using the Kingdom through His Son to be SHEPHERDS under Christ over all Creation who are groaning to be "delivered into the glorious freedom of the Children of God." Remember: "the saints shall judge the world." They will do that with the purpose to break them all down, so they can receive the food of humility.
This scripture is saying this: the overcomer shall shepherd/feed/rule/pastor the nations with a rod of iron.
There it is in the Bible, but when have you ever heard it preached?
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i charge you to take every scripture i posted and show everyone here your "take" on it!!!!! Go ahead....i"m waiting!!!
you charge ME? Well then ... I better get right down to it ...
Its really quite easy ...
Quote:
Job 34:10-12
"Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding:
.....far be it from God that He should do ............wickedness, .....and from the Almighty that He should do ..........wrong.
God doesn't do wickedness ... But God creates evil.
Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Quote:
For according to the work of a man He will repay ..........him, ...and according to his ways He will make it befall him.
Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, ...and the Almighty will not pervert justice.
In the old testament God was severe with Israel, teaching by the letter of the law. They were learning by the mysteries of the shadow of Grace. The law is the shadow of grace. But Jesus revealed to us a greater mystery, which is love and forgiveness ... Matthew 5:43-45 (King James Version)
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust
Quote:
Psalms 5:4-6
For You are not a God who takes pleasure in
.......wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You.
The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity. You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The Lord abhors the bloodstirsty and deceitful man.
God will destroy all the works of the devil, and he will sit as a purifier of silver. He is like a refiners fire and a fullers soap.(Mal 3:2)
We were once also wicked and enemies of God until the father dragged us
to the cross by means of his spirit. God will destroy the carnal man that we
might be judged according to men, yet live according to the spirit of God.
1Pe 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Quote:
Psalms 6:8 Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity;
This verse is a part of the prophecy of the judgment of Nations at Christs return. Those who are not found worthy will not be allowed inside the gates of the new city ... They will live in outer darkness where death and sin will still exist, though the dragon will be bound so that the nations will not be deceived again until after the millennium.
Quote:
Psalms 14:4
Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge,
Who eat up my people as they eat bread,
And do not call on the Lord?
See the above ...
Quote:
Psalms 28:3-5
Do not drag me off with the wicked,
...with the workers of evil,
who speak peace with their neighbors
...while evil is in their hearts. Give to them according to their work ...and according to the evil of their deeds; give to them according to the work of their hands; ...render to them their due reward.
Because they do not regard the works of the Lord
...or the work of His hands, he will tear them down and build them up no ..........more.
This sounds remarkably like fundamental Christianity to me. You tell the world that God loves everybody and that you love every body but that most people will either be tortured or dead forever(whatever you individual taste may be).
Whats really interesting about this verse to me is that the end of verse 5 is "he will tear them down(harac- tare down)and build them up no ..........more(banah - rebuild)" ...
I don't know why that is translated the way that it is but it seems to say tare down rebuild. But what do i Know?
Regardless, This is in reference to life on earth during the ages. As the wicked dead will not be resurrected until fullness of times. At the end of the ages. But we know they will be resurrected.
Quote:
Psalms 36:12 There the evildoers lie fallen; ...they are thrust down, unable to rise
We know that they will be risen from the dead according to the new testament. The 2nd resurrection. They will face the lake of fire purification before they can enter into the new heavens and earth. They will suffer loss, yet saved as though by fire(1Cr 3:15).
Quote:
Psalms 37:1
Fret not yourself because of evildoers;
...be not envious of wrongdoers!
For they will soon fade like the grass
...and whither like the green herb.
There will be no more evildoers at the fullness of the ages, as all evil will be destroyed and all things renewed and reconciled to God.
Quote:
Psalms 92:5-9
How great are your works, O LORD!
...Your thoughts are very deep!
The stupid man cannot know;
...the fool cannot understand this:
that though the wicked sprout like grass
...and all evildoers flourish, they are doomed to destruction forever.
For behold, Your enemies, O LORD,
...for behold, Your enemies shall perish; ...all evildoers shall be scattered.
The word forever in that passage is olam, and means literally beyond the horizon. It is a mistranslation. All evildoers will perish for the ages, but will be renewed in the fullness of times as Christ proclaims ...
Revelation 21:5 (King James Version)
5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Quote:
Psalms 94:1-7,23
O LORD, God of vengeance,
O God of vengeance, shine forth!
Rise up, O Judge of the earth;
...repay to the proud what they deserve!
O LORD, how long shall the wicked,
...how long shall the wicked exult? They pour out their arrogant words; ...all the evildoers boast.
They crush Your people O LORD,
...and afflict Your heritage.
They kill the widow and the sojourner,
...and murder the fatherless;
and they say, "The LORD does not see;
...the God of Jacob does not perceive."
God will judge the word in righteousness. His judgments are for the purpose of healing and restoring comforts to the wicked.
Isaiah 57:17-20 (King James Version)
17For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
18I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
19I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.
Quote:
Understand, O dullest of the people!
...Fools, when will you be wise?
He who planted the ear, does He not hear?
He who formed the eye, does he not see?
See above.
Quote:
Psalms 125:5 But those who turn aside to their crooked ways ...the LORD will lead away with evildoers!
See above ...
Quote:
Luke 13:22-28 "The Narrow Way"
And He went through the cities and villages, teaching and journeying toward Jerusalem.
Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?"
And He said to them, Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, 'LORD, LORD, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where are you from,' then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.' But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from, Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.' There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the Kingdom of God, and you yourself thrust out.
See above ...
There ya go no problem got anymore that was fun ...!
I'm being as gentle and respectful as I can right now twin...and I have such a clear conscience about it...we just sometimes reach a point where it gets off balance on this forum...too many lies...not enough truth being spread around here for me..and I can't help but think of the babes who read this forum searching for truth...I care the most for their minds and hearts!
But thank you for your thoughtfulness...I do appreciate it very much...
In Christ,
Verna.
Verna,
Your welcome.
John 16:33
"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."
Verna... Why do you not have peace?
You seem very upset. Father has given us the peace that surpasses all understanding. You are upset perhaps because God is trying to tell you something, sister. Now I know you see me as an "evildoer" because I believe that Jesus is the saviour of all mankind and that no-one will be lost forever... but perhaps you can put that aside for a moment and just listen to me. Is God trying to tell you something?
His burden is light...
He gives us the peace that surpasses all understanding.
Something is wrong with this picture. of folks screaming about people being lost forever!! Would God do that? He created us. We did not ask to be created. He is our Creator, He is ultimately responsible for the creation. Every knee WILL bow and confess Jesus is saviour.
EVERY. Those who are steeped in sin, need love more than any of us.
Father SEES this and KNOWS this. HE will LEAVE the 99 to find the ONE who is lost. ALWAYS. Verna.... ALWAYS.
Think about it.
You wish to do His will...
You want to follow Him...
But your words speak not of peace.
At all.
Perhaps, God is trying to tell you something.
Something needs to be shaken off of you.
Something needs to be destroyed.
That darkness that is the belief that Father will destroy even ONE has no business in your heart.
HE did not put it there.
Ask Him, Verna.
Ask Him if He put it there.
Don't scream about the Bible.
Don't quote verses.
Quietly, go to Father.... and ask Him.
I love you.
And I think Father wants to give you the TRUE peace that surpasses all understanding.
No need to respond to this.
Just, keep it in mind.
That's all I ask.
I won't bother you anymore if you just keep that in mind.
I think you are a good person, Verna...
And I know God loves you.
Romans 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
Sparrow, I appreciate what you are trying to do...but you are so wrong about me! I am, with confidence speaking the very Truth of God, and IT supports me!!! You see, I stand upon every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God...not just what I like!
I'm bear no ill will towards anyone...I do what I do because I love my brothers and sisters, and I care about the babes who read some of this crap that is spewed on this forum, and we, as Christians need to tell the truth to them!
Verna, no your verses do not attack UR. People have different views on these verses, even in the UR camp.
No, no one is saying that Jesus will not do this.
No, no one is mad at Jesus for saying this.
Matt 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
It is clear Jesus will do this. What is not clear if this is the final destiny for those who are sent away. Note verse 21, only he who does the will of the Father can enter. Have you considered that people will be eventually changed so that they all do the will of the Father? It is God's love that leads a person to repent, which will bring them into the will of the Father.
Furthermore, what is the "kingdom of heaven" talking about? If you study the meaning of "kingdom" there, you will realize this is talking about reigning with Christ. Some bibles translate it as "reign of the heavens". It is quite true that not everyone will reign with Christ. Those who are told to depart will not be reigning with Him - instead they will be subjects of the Kingdom
Matt 8:12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
But realize that those who reign with Christ have a special purpose - they will be judges, kings, priests, and ministers. Ask yourself who they will be reigning over, who will they be preaching too?
Verna, if you could read this article, it would be much benefit to the discussion:
--
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I (Jesus) give power over the nations: And he shall rule (POIMANO) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
The word "poimano" means to rule...but as a shepherd rules over a flock, a shepherd who feeds them. The duty of "poimano" given to the church (in pastoring the Body of Christ) is the same "poimano" given to the overcomer over the nations.
Did you realize that God is choosing very few people, who have been faithful to the end, to inherit His reign for the purpose of becoming PASTORS to the entire world? Just as God chooses shepherds (pastors) in the Body of Christ, God will be using the Kingdom through His Son to be SHEPHERDS under Christ over all Creation who are groaning to be "delivered into the glorious freedom of the Children of God." Remember: "the saints shall judge the world." They will do that with the purpose to break them all down, so they can receive the food of humility.
This scripture is saying this: the overcomer shall shepherd/feed/rule/pastor the nations with a rod of iron.
There it is in the Bible, but when have you ever heard it preached?
--
UMMM, I am not sure if you are sending this to me, or Verna. You have my post with her name. So, I am kind of confused to who you are talking too.
But I am not saying that Jesus want change His mind, it just doesn't say that He will. God says to not add or take away from His Word. So, I personally can't say God will, if that is not what it is saying.... So, I am only taking and believing what is there.
Yes, I know that it is clear that Jesus will do it, and it is clear that there will be some in hell. I don't see in scripture that Jesus will change His mind or take those out of Hell. So, I will only trust what is there.
You seem to have this strong desire to be right or make others believe as you do. So much angst in your post. God is the creator of ALL things,so let not your heart be troubled ,verna.
...Angst?...more like just fed up with twisting Scripture spm...it does trouble me when I know in my heart there are babes reading this "stuff" that come from those who twist Scripture...and I have a responsibility to make sure there is Truth being told here...for them!
Verna, I realized you posted a lot of scripture in your OP that says the wicked will perish or be destroyed or die, and I realize you are leaning towards eternal death as opposed to eternal torment.
I believe this scripture plainly opposes the possibility that anyone will stay dead for eternity:
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
This makes perfect sense as Christ defeats death. If death is no abolished, then everyone must be eventually made alive, and that is what 1 Cor 15:22 says! Its right there in scripture, why argue against it!
God will destroy the wicked forever, and eventually there will be no more wicked people. This is because they will all be made righteous! This is the good news:
Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Again we see Christ's one act of righteousness brings life for all men (just like 1 Cor 15:22). Furthermore, the same people who were made sinners ("the many"), are the same people who will be made righteous ("the many"). So we see that all will be made righteous, and wickedness will be eventually destroyed.
How does God make people righteous? Through Christ, and through His judgments.
Isaiah 26:9 My soul yearns for you in the night;
in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth,
the people of the world learn righteousness. 10 Though grace is shown to the wicked,
they do not learn righteousness;
even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil
and regard not the majesty of the LORD.
See what this is saying? Even though grace is shown to them, the wicked don't learn righteousness. So that is why God's judgments are required, so they will learn righteousness.
And it is all the inhabitants of the world (KJV) who will learn righteousness - that is - everyone.
So to summarize: all will be made alive, all will be made righteous - the wicked are destroyed because they are made righteous.
Please please please look into this more with an open mind Verna. It is the best news anyone could learn of.
And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.
Do, we just ignore this and think that Jesus didn't mean what He was saying? I am not looking for opinion, but what you actually see in this scripture or how do you interpret it in your mind?
We are accountable for what we do.
1C 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
And I'll stick with the outcome of this commission by an entity far beyond our perceptions. You can believe as you will.
1Jn 4:14 And we' have gazed upon Him, and are testifying that the Father has dispatched the Son, the Saviour of the world.
I hear over and over again from those who believe thatGod will not cast out, forever, those who are found to be in sin...
Lamentations 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever.
Lamentations 3:32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. 33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? 39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
Quote:
You hate all workers of iniquity.
Jeremiah 12:7 I have forsaken mine house, I have left mine heritage; I have given the dearly beloved of my soul into the hand of her enemies. 8 Mine heritage is unto me as a lion in the forest; it crieth out against me: therefore have I hated it.
Isaiah 54:6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
Quote:
You shall destroy those who speak falsehood;
The curse:
Deuteronomy 28:24 The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
45 Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed
51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed:
61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed
Salvation out from within all the curse:
Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost [parts] of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
Quote:
they are doomed to destruction forever.
Isaiah 32:14 Because the palaces shall be forsaken; the multitude of the city shall be left; the forts and towers shall be for dens for ever, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks; 15 Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.
Quote:
Psalms 94:1-7,23
Quote:
O LORD, God of vengeance,O God of vengeance, shine forth!
Rise up, O Judge of the earth;
Deuteronomy 32:32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter: 33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps. 34 Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures? 35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. 36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
Quote:
...repay to the proud what they deserve!
O LORD, how long shall the wicked,
...how long shall the wicked exult? They pour out their arrogant words; ...all the evildoers boast.
Zephenia 3:8 Therefore wait upon me, saith the Lord, until the day when I rise up for a witness: because my judgment shall be on the gatherings of the nations, to draw to me kings, to pour out upon them all my fierce anger: for the whole earth shall be consumed with the fire of my jealousy. 9 For then will I turn to the peoples a tongue for her generation, that all may call on the name of the Lord, to serve him under one yoke. 10 From the boundaries of the rivers of Ethiopia will I receive my dispersed ones; they shall offer sacrifices to me. 11 In that day thou shalt not be ashamed of all thy practices, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then will I take away from thee thy disdainful pride, and thou shalt no more magnify thyself upon my holy mountain. 12 And I will leave in thee a meek and lowly people; 13 and the remnant of Israel shall fear the name of the Lord, and shall do no iniquity, neither shall they speak vanity; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth.
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Would God do that? He created us. We did not ask to be created. He is our Creator, He is ultimately responsible for the creation. Every knee WILL bow and confess Jesus is saviour.
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