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First you must believe that Christ is God, then through that act of faith, your salvation is cemented through your works and grace provided through the Holy Spirit.
How do you square this up with the Gospel that Paul received from Jesus?:
1Co 15:1 And I make known to you, brethren, the good news that I proclaimed to you, which also ye did receive, in which also ye have stood,
1Co 15:2 through which also ye are being saved, in what words I proclaimed good news to you, if ye hold fast, except ye did believe in vain,
1Co 15:3 for I delivered to you first, what also I did receive, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Writings,
1Co 15:4 and that he was buried, and that he hath risen on the third day, according to the Writings,
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 11-17-2009 at 11:56 PM..
Reason: added bold type
Yeah.. that has been proven to be an interpolation... and part of verse 8 as well.... Look it up. It is not found in the early greek manuscripts.
Tertullian quoted this verse in his Apology; Against Praxeas in 200 AD...do you have something better? I would have to dig up this one even more to see if there is any earlier....digging.......give me a little time.
Edited to add: after digging from my library...1 John 5:7,8 is found in the Old Latin Vulgate and Greek Vulgate (90-150 A.D.), plus the Syriac Peshiito (150 A.D.) It is also found in many first century church lectionaries as well...do you have anything earlier...sorry katonjj, but the modern UR crowd has attempted to usurp this, but yet again...it is not....shoot...just open up the BLB and translate to the Vulgate to see that it is. Girl, you need to break out of that paradigm you are in, and look around. I have an extensive library, if you would only take some suggestions...I have been doing this a very long time you know. I am only here to help.
From the Vulgate: quia tres sunt qui testimonium dant
From the Greek Syriac: ὅτι τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες
Tatian’s Diatesseron which was a harmony of the four gospels which was written about 150 A.D. When Taitian had penned the book of John, he referenced 1 John 5:7 which again proves that 1 John 5:7 predates the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, by roughly 200 years, where the verse had been omitted to support their heresy.
Keep in mind katonjj, that it was Origen who was the father of the proposed falsified manuscripts, which he removed this verse in question as he also did to verses such as Acts 8:37 and Luke 24:40 to mention a couple. The Alexandrian school of theology was indeed no friend of the true, authentic manuscripts that were taken from Antioch and supposedly fall in line with their Gnostic beliefs and traditions. I hope that has helped you understand that many of the sources you have been using, are indeed heavily influenced on pure interpolation and eisegetical insertions of the platonic, gnostic ideas, based on their errors of the flesh, and ended up warping the true nature of the scripture themselves.
Again, I apologize for the past few days...the flesh overthrew my candor.
Last edited by sciotamicks; 11-18-2009 at 01:08 AM..
Reason: spelling again :( and added info from my library
Tertullian quoted this verse in his Apology; Against Praxeas in 200 AD...do you have something better? I would have to dig up this one even more to see if there is any earlier....digging.......give me a little time.
Edited to add: after digging from my library...1 John 5:7,8 is found in the Old Latin Vulgate and Greek Vulgate (90-150 A.D.), plus the Syriac Peshiito (150 A.D.) It is also found in many first century church lectionaries as well...do you have anything earlier...sorry katonjj, but the modern UR crowd has attempted to usurp this, but yet again...it is not....shoot...just open up the BLB and translate to the Vulgate to see that it is. Girl, you need to break out of that paradigm you are in, and look around. I have an extensive library, if you would only take some suggestions...I have been doing this a very long time you know. I am only here to help.
From the Vulgate: quia tres sunt qui testimonium dant
From the Greek Syriac: ὅτι τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες
Tatian’s Diatesseron which was a harmony of the four gospels which was written about 150 A.D. When Taitian had penned the book of John, he referenced 1 John 5:7 which again proves that 1 John 5:7 predates the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, by roughly 200 years, where the verse had been omitted to support their heresy.
Keep in mind katonjj, that it was Origen who was the father of the proposed falsified manuscripts, which he removed this verse in question as he also did to verses such as Acts 8:37 and Luke 24:40 to mention a couple. The Alexandrian school of theology was indeed no friend of the true, authentic manuscripts that were taken from Antioch and supposedly fall in line with their Gnostic beliefs and traditions. I hope that has helped you understand that many of the sources you have been using, are indeed heavily influenced on pure interpolation and eisegetical insertions of the platonic, gnostic ideas, based on their errors of the flesh, and ended up warping the true nature of the scripture themselves.
Again, I apologize for the past few days...the flesh overthrew my candor.
Your apology accepted.... Moving on..
You quote the Latin Vulgate.. Jeromes I assume.. and yet it says plainly that Verses 7 reads in its entirety: For there are three that testify (quia tres sunt qui testimonium dant) You underline there are three... Why?
You have proven that the Latin Vulgate does not record verse 7 as:
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Which is what you quoted.
If we take verses 5-9 from Jeromes Latin Vulgate:
quia tres sunt qui testimonium dant
Spiritus et aqua et sanguis et tres unum sunt
si testimonium hominum accipimus testimonium Dei maius est quoniam hoc est testimonium Dei quod maius est quia testificatus est de Filio suo
It reads:
For there are three that testify:
the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three agree.
We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.
Now what you are saying is false...
Codex Sinaiticus (c. 350) shows this: 7 For they that testify are three, 8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are one. 9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; because this is the testimony of God that he has testified concerning his Son.
But this isn't about that...this is about Jesus being God, which everyone that contributed here in proving that, did just that....we proved by scripture alone that Christ is God. We rest our case.
Good job everyone.
You must believe (faith) Christ to be God to be saved...take it or leave it.
The next thing that comes after that is Grace for your belief, and the works you do perform, justify your reward.
Though Jesus is Divine the Bible does not ever say He is eternal. As a matter of fact, the bible never states that God is eternal.
Instead the Old Testament always relates God to Olam which is age in the noun form and eonian in the adjectival form.
The Hebrew scholars who translated the Hebrew into Greek called the Septuagint translated Olam in the noun form as aion and adjectival form as aionion.
Jesus cannot be the God who fills heaven and earth because David, under inspiration wrote:
Psa 110:1 A Davidic Psalm The averring of Yahweh to my Lord: Sit at My right Until I should set Your enemies as a stool for Your feet.
So Jesus is David's Lord but God i.e. Yahweh was telling David's Lord what to do. It is not "Yahweh said to Himself."
Isaiah 9-6 For unto us a child is born.
to us a son is given.
And the government shall be upon His shoulders.
And His name shall be called.
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
EVERLASTING FATHER, Prince of Peace.
This is but one of the many many scriptures that destroys your statement. This is one of my favorite passages of the bible as it really shows us who Jesus is and where He came from.
But this isn't about that...this is about Jesus being God, which everyone that contributed here in proving that, did just that....we proved by scripture alone that Christ is God. We rest our case.
Good job everyone.
You must believe (faith) Christ to be God to be saved...take it or leave it.
The next thing that comes after that is Grace for your belief, and the works you do perform, justify your reward.
Oh brother.
In other words, you never considered Jesus saying He is not the disciple's God when He said to them:
"I am ascending to your God" (John 20:17).
Their God was not Jesus. Their God was Jesus' God.
If Jesus was their God why did He not say so here?
Just the fact that you say: "You must believe (faith) Christ to be God to be saved" shows you don't have a clue.
In other words, you never considered Jesus saying He is not the disciple's God when He said to them:
"I am ascending to your God" (John 20:17).
Their God was not Jesus. Their God was Jesus' God.
If Jesus was their God why did He not say so here?
Just the fact that you say: "You must believe (faith) Christ to be God to be saved" shows you don't have a clue.
Just the fact that you can say that shows a woeful ignorance of what the bible says. There are literally hundreds of passages in the bible that tell us Jesus is LORD. You say that you don't have to believe Jusus devine to be saved. You have to believe in Jesus as He is to be saved. The belief in a figment of your imagination is not saving faith at all.
Just the fact that you can say that shows a woeful ignorance of what the bible says. There are literally hundreds of passages in the bible that tell us Jesus is LORD. You say that you don't have to believe Jusus devine to be saved. You have to believe in Jesus as He is to be saved. The belief in a figment of your imagination is not saving faith at all.
Just stick with the facts, bub.
Why didn't Jesus ever say He (Jesus) is the disciples God if He was?
Why did Jesus say to the disciples after He rose from the dead that "I am ascending to your God" if in fact Jesus was their God?
Why did Jesus always say He has a God if He is God?
Deal with those issues first and quit living in your imaginative world.
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