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So really none of the trinitarians have given me any reasons why I should think that Jesus is God. or that the holy spirit is separate from God... why then is it necessary for salvation according to the church?
I have many examples you refuse to see, let alone what I provided.
I also showed you an error that you are believing. You say you even try to understand come translations to a certain degree, yet it doesn't look like you did much research on what begotten means.
The word doesn't even mean born, it means unique, or one and only. Like I have said Jesus is the unique, one and only Son of God.
You say in error that Jesus was not before He was begotten, Jesus even says that He came from heaven.
It is simple things like you say, which you seem to not do, simply read scripture.
So, who is right you or Jesus, well I take my chances with Jesus?
You say Jesus was not before He was begotten, but you don't understand what begotten means.
Jesus says:
John 6:32-35
.................................. My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is He (Jesus) who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world
Then they said to Him, Lord give us this bread always. And Jesus answered I am the bread of Life.
John 6:38
For I have come from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who cent me.
In order to understand, you should begin in your error of understanding certain scripture. Because you are not doing what you say is simple, by understanding what is being provided.
There are others that try to discredit and say that God has sent many, which is true. God does send many men, but none of them were brought from Heaven. God called them while on earth.
Father (said Jesus), glorify me in your own presence with the glory which I had with you before the world (Kosmon) was made." (John 17:5)
If you had bother to look at John 6:38 in greek and actually tried to understand it. In greek it actually says that Jesus stepped out of heaven, and this word means to decend.
John 6:38
καταβέβηκα -means to go down, decend. So, this is what Jesus said that He did. He came down, decended down from heaven. You said that He was born, which is wrong. When you look at God's Word with a carnal mind you will mess yourself up.
You sin and Jesus did not! That is the big difference!
This shows the lack here when a person places themself on the same scale as God. Especially someone who sins vs someone who does not. If it wasn't for Jesus we wouldn't be here. The same Jesus that she refuses to see who He really is, is the same Jesus that she will standing in front of during judgement. We all will.
There was once a time before I really read the bible I use to be a little confused about who Jesus was. But the more I read, the more the Holy Spirit opened my eyes. God will never reveal something about Himself that is a lie. The Holy Spirit reveals all truth and that truth that He is revealing is Jesus.
This shows the lack here when a person places themself on the same scale as God. Especially someone who sins vs someone who does not. If it wasn't for Jesus we wouldn't be here. The same Jesus that she refuses to see who He really is, is the same Jesus that she will standing in front of during judgement. We all will.
There was once a time before I really read the bible I use to be a little confused about who Jesus was. But the more I read, the more the Holy Spirit opened my eyes. God will never reveal something about Himself that is a lie. The Holy Spirit reveals all truth and that truth that He is revealing is Jesus.
What do you do with this verse then ?.
Jesus answered them, 'Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods? John 10 :34
This shows the lack here when a person places themself on the same scale as God. Especially someone who sins vs someone who does not. If it wasn't for Jesus we wouldn't be here. The same Jesus that she refuses to see who He really is, is the same Jesus that she will standing in front of during judgement. We all will.
Amen.....
This scripture came to my heart when I read those words.....
"Because if Christ is flesh and blood as I am and had the indwelling of the spirit as I do.. then how is he God and I am not?"
Isa. 14:12-15 12 “ How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations! 13 For you have said in your heart:
I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’ 15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
Jesus answered them, 'Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods? John 10 :34
I simply see it how it is being used and what God says that it means.
In the OT, judges were gods. They exercised godlike judical sovereignty.
It seems that you didn't read the next scripture down, which would further help you understand what Jesus was saying.
34 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God( and the scriptures cannot be broken)
Jesus' arguement was that if the divine name had been applied by God to mere men, there could be neither blasphemy nor folly in its applictaion to incarnate Son of God Himself.
He called them gods to whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken. The word of God’s commission came to them, appointing them to their offices, as judges, and therefore they are called gods.
I simply see it how it is being used and what God says that it means.
In the OT, judges were gods. They exercised godlike judical sovereignty.
It seems that you didn't read the next scripture down, which would further help you understand what Jesus was saying.
34 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God( and the scriptures cannot be broken)
Jesus' arguement was that if the divine name had been applied by God to mere men, there could be neither blasphemy nor folly in its applictaion to incarnate Son of God Himself.
He called them gods to whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken. The word of God’s commission came to them, appointing them to their offices, as judges, and therefore they are called gods.
Well it seems you didn't read the next verse down because it clearly states to whom the word of God came .
To who did the word of God come ? find the answer in the first 12 verses of John chapter 1.
Also what are you going to with this verse "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8 verse 29.
Well it seems you didn't read the next verse down because it clearly says to whom the word of God came .
T who did the word of God come ? find the answer in the first 12 verses of John chapter 1.
Also what are you going to with "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8 verse 29.
I did read and I will post this again. You simply miss what God is saying, and I seems rather strange that you don't understand this.
We are in the image of His Son, we are not Him, the image.
We are little gods and God said what that means. This is what God says. If you want to fight with it, that is not my fight, you will have to fight with what God said.
He called them gods to whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken. The word of God’s commission came to them, appointing them to their offices, as judges, and therefore they are called gods.
To some the word of God came immediately, as to Moses; to others in the way of an instituted ordinance. Magistracy is a divine institution; and magistrates are God’s delegates, and therefore the scripture calls them gods. They are not Gods on the same scale as God, common sense, they are gods.
Romans 8:29 Geeze do you not understand what this verse is saying. By throwing in this verse, this is not change what Jesus is saying.
Instead He chose those who would be saved out of His own free will. We are in the image little god that will always have to depend on God the Son to get to the Father.
I see why people are so confused. They see the word gods and makes it out to be what it doesn't mean. God is specific when He says things, people take it upon themselves to see things that are not there.
Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 11-23-2009 at 05:26 AM..
I've been trying to wrap my head around the trinity for some time now...
Here is what keeps tripping me up if I accept the trinity:
God is Spirit
The Holy Ghost is Spirit
Jesus is Flesh and Spirit
God is Three: Father (spirit), Holy Ghost (spirit), and Jesus Christ (flesh and spirit)
So if I accept that there are three.. then I must accept that the Father (spirit) is not the Holy Ghost (spirit)
But they are both God's spirit...
Anyone willing to explain this separation of spirit to me?
There is no seperatiion of the Spirit. They are One and the same. Remember the post I did concerning Jesus of Nazareth, and Jesus the Christ? Those were the questions I posed,,,similar to yours. Noone has explained the need for the bodily shaped decension of the Spirit into the man, Jesus of Nazareth upon baptism.
This is the Spirit leading you Kat. Let Him lead and He will. Bust through the religious jargin that we have been indoctrinated with. Again, here are the questions I posed back in the day.
Quote:
By our God given reason, and the Spirit of Truth, we can see the difference. There are so many droplets of information, into the sea of religion, that sometimes it is hard to tell, what is fact, and what is paganistic fantasy.
Some say Jesus of Nazareth COULD NOT sin. Why? Becuase he was God.
Some say Jesus "had a leg up" concerning this, or a "God nature".
Some say He was the Christ, the moment He was birthed INTO the world.
Some say the Christ was simply the name of Jesus, like a last name.
Some say righteousness is impossible to achieve, even having been saved through the Blood of the risen Christ Jesus. Some say that Christ Jesus IS our righteousness.
What say you?
What was the need to overcome the world, if the world was already overcome? And so by saying this, what they are really saying is that Jesus of Nazareth overcame the world, by the God-Nature already in Him, than really what He did was of no significance. Right?
So when the annointing came, the Spirit descending upon Him, thus becoming Jesus the Christ, really then what we have is also not anything of importance, because the Spirit was already there, right?
So really, the story of the NT was nothing but God being raised up, in the "form" of a human, just so He could die on the cross, right?
So man could kill God? And after killing God, God-man could just magically poof Himself out of the grave, right?
I found the answer in Genesis. I can see the Light of Christ plain as day.
I did read and I will post this again. You simply miss what God is saying, and I seems rather strange that you don't understand this.
We are in the image of His Son, we are not Him, the image.
We are little gods and God said what that means. This is what God says. If you want to fight with it, that is not my fight, you will have to fight with what God said.
He called them gods to whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken. The word of God’s commission came to them, appointing them to their offices, as judges, and therefore they are called gods.
To some the word of God came immediately, as to Moses; to others in the way of an instituted ordinance. Magistracy is a divine institution; and magistrates are God’s delegates, and therefore the scripture calls them gods. They are not Gods on the same scale as God, common sense, they are gods.
Romans 8:29 Geeze do you not understand what this verse is saying. By throwing in this verse, this is not change what Jesus is saying.
Instead He chose those who would be saved out of His own free will. We are in the image little god that will always have to depend on God the Son to get to the Father.
I see why people are so confused. They see the word gods and makes it out to be what it doesn't mean. God is specific when He says things, people take it upon themselves to see things that are not there.
I find it strange that you are repeating what you have learnt from man , rather than learning by the Sprit what the word has to say about it .I also find it hard to understand that you do not know we are becoming what He is.
We are the sons of God ,Jesus said to the jews He was God's son and the jews considered it blaspemy , do you consider it blasphemy that i can call myself a son of God ?
We are little gods ???????????? where does it say this ????
The scriptures clearly tell us we go through the same process Jesus went through
7During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, oncemade perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.Hebrews 5:7,8.9
For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.g And by him we cry, “Abba,h Father.” 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirswith Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Hebrews 10 verse 14
18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflecta the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. (In otherwords we are becoming what He is) 2 Cor 3 : 18
And he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit; 1 Cor 6 : 17 (I and the Father are one)
See ye what love the Father hath given to us, that children of God we may be called . 1 John 3 : 1
There are dozens of scriptures that tell us that we are becoming what He the son is.
When we see him we shall be like Him.
Finally do you not think this is kind of odd for John the disciple who lay on his bosom (how closer at that time could he get) to say this ?.
1How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
I thought John had seen Him how He was ?
When we begin to understand that we are one in Spirit , we will begin to understand that God is one . We have this habit of looking at our own miserable short comings and get diverted from the the truth that oneness is in Spirit and not in the flesh.
Last edited by pcamps; 11-23-2009 at 06:21 AM..
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