In deep thought about the Trinity (hell, Israel, worship, verse)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
First off...this is an error. God is not a title. He is God. All and Everything.[
This is false. God is not his name.
Yes it is...it is His name.
No,God is not his name. God is a title.
This is from the link at the end of the post.
Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,
"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
Quote:
I can agree with this, however, to mankind, the Father is part of theGodhead, what God did for mankind, is He divided Himself into three for us...Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
No, the Father did not divide himself into anything.
He gives his spirit to whomever he wills. But he is not like a piece of playdough broken into three separate pieces. He is one being. Jesus is another being.
Quote:
This is true, but Jesus is the fullness:
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily
The fullness of God indwelt him..I agree
What does the bible say God is....spirit.
He was indwelled by the Holy spirit.
He was indwelled by the Father`s Spirit.
We wouldn`t say, God is indwelled by the fullness of God or the Father is indwelled by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Father. It is his spirit or essence that indwelled Jesus.
Quote:
אלהים 'elohiym is plural...not singular, so we have evidence in the earliest of scriptures that there were more "parts" to God.
This has nothing to do with the Father being Jesus and Jesus being the Father and both of them being the Holy Spirit.
Quote:
John 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.
They are ONE.
Didn`t Jesus tell the disciples to be as one JUST LIKE HE AND THE FATHER ARE ONE? Did you catch that..JUST LIKE. So,does that mean the disciples are all the same person? No! They are one in purpose. One in essence. A team can be considered to be one entity. But they are made up of separate individuals. They are unified in cause and purpose. Just like we will be one day. Just like God`s true church should be. But we are not the Father. We are not Jesus. But we are to be indwelt with the same exact spirit that jesus had..the spirit of the living God. Didn`t the disciples have the power to do miracles just like Jesus? Where did they get their power?
Did they get it from the same place Jesus got it?
Quote:
Christ is God manifested in the flesh.
I agree. But he is not the Father. He is full of God`s Spirit. That is what makes him manifested in the flesh. Who gave him that spirit? Did anyone give the Father a spirit? Did anyone give the Father anything? Where did Jesus get his power from?
When one can get away from the popular teaching of the roman church and truly seek the truth apart from what man has taught them, the truth becomes clearer. Seek the truth and the truth shall make you free. It is a hard thing to let go of the popular world teaching by the religions and cults of modern time.
The beginning to understanding and breaking away from the religious teaching of the trinity is to understand that GOD IS NOT HIS PERSONAL NAME. It is a title as I have shown above. The bible says the Father gave Jesus ALL that he has. All of his power,all of creation,all of his wisdom,everything came from the Father. Jesus is a begotten entity. The Father is not begotten. Noone can give the Father anything because everything is his and came from him. There is not one atom or particle that exist that did not come from or originate from the Father,including Jesus!
Jesus is not the Father. When we get to glory there will be 2 separate beings...the Father and Jesus. The Holy Spirit will indwell us. When you communicate with the Father, you are communicating with the Holy Spirit. He is the Holy Spirit.
Perhaps the following link will provide some insight. But if one only wants to look at something through the prism of the church and it`s teachings, then you will never understand it. You have to be willing to have enough faith and rely on God to lead you. It isn`t blasphemy to ask God to show you the truth apart from the church. Pray to him that you only want the truth. Some people say they want the truth but deep down they don`t want to look or see anything that isn`t approved by the church. They simply refuse to even consider that the church could be wrong. So they go on following man`s teachings.
Well that's the thing. If I say there is one God I picture 1. If a trinitarian says there is one God they see 3. I want to know what the purpose of calling the spirit of God by a name and making it separate from God is. Even if I could project my spirit onto another it would still be my spirit. And if I were filled with the spirit of God noone would say I was part of the Godhead yet Jesus is... I want to at least understand this to make a qualified decision as to it's validity. If I don't then I haven't exhausted all argument within myself. There is some weird push to believe this trinity but something within me says it's all to fishy and convoluted to be true.
Actually you are confusing yourself on what we see and saying what we see is actually wrong. We don't see three Gods, we only see one God, who exist in the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.
I gave you an example one time before you came up with an off the wall explanation.
Isaiah 6:1
In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple.
Your version that you use says that I see the Lord.
Isaiah didn't see three Gods, he saw his Lord (Adonai), for he said my Lord.
The Lord said who will go for us?
The Lord is showing Isaiah Himself in a vision about Himself as He is revealing Himself to him. The throne where the Lord is seated, high and exalted, represents His eternal, sovereign, and universal rule.
The Lord is referring to Himself, God is speaking to The Son, and The Holy Spirit within Himself. The plural pronoun emphasizes the majesty of the speaker. The Us in this passage is similar to the language of Genesis 1:26-28.
We are made in the image of God and not an angel. So, When God says Let us make man in our image and our likeness, we know that God is not referring to an angel because God then turns around and says man has become like one of us. God is referring to the image we were first created in.
Isaiah saw the Lord Jesus, this vision is explained in John 12:41. John uses the words His glory to speak of the manifestation of God Himself. In verse 40 as a prophet of the many people's unbelief and their rejection of Christ. In that verse, Isaiah was talking about God Himself. Therefore in this passage John is teaching that Jesus is God.
If you look at John 1:18: Jesus says that no one has seen God, but the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
The word has been mistranslated and does not even mean He was born. The word is Monogenes, it is a compound word, Mono (only), and Genes (Kind or race). Just like I was telling you before He is the only one of His kind, unique.
The word has been mistranslated and actually means unique, or one and only. Jesus is the only and only Son of God, He was not created and was not made.
Back to John 1:18 Jesus says that no one has seen God at any time, but Him. So, this further shows that Jesus existed before He was begotten, because He is the only one that knows the Father.
No one has see the Father, nor heard His voice, or seen His form.
John 5:37
And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
Now, you have Jesus saying that no one has seen God, no one has seen the Father, seen His form, or heard His voice.
So, who was Moses seeing when God said that He saw Him face to face, who did Abraham see when he saw God walking up with angels.
God is Spirit, and is invisible unless God chooses to reveal Himself. God became visible to human eyes in the man Jesus. It is through seeing the Son that we see God. Jesus said that the only Begotten Son came to earth and declared Him, and can also mean explained Him.
Genesis 12:7
The Lord appeared to Abraham and several other times in scripture as well as other people. They were not seeing the Father.
John 14:7-10
Philip asked Jesus to show him The Father, and Jesus said have I been with you so long, and yet you not know me. He then explains that He is in the Father and the Father in Him, they are one, just like what Isaiah say, One God.
We also have the Holy Spirit who is also God.
Jacob didn't wrestle with the Father, He either wrestled with The Holy Spirit or with Jesus.
Jesus already said to see Him is to see the Father. No one saw the Father in the OT. It is impossible to see God, The Father and the only way is to see Him in The Lord Jesus Christ or by The Holy Spirit.
1 Timothy 3:16
God was manifested in the flesh. In the greek (Theos) was made appear (ephanerothe)in flesh (Sarki) referring to the physical body and human existence of our Lord Jesus. The dative is used by the writer.
Christ spoke of The Holy Spirit as the Comforter. Jesus told them to go out and baptize in the name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. They are equal in one in baptizing.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father, He has a personality: He teaches, comforts, convicts, helps and intercedes, inspires, gives gifts, and so many more.
The Holy Spirit decended on Jesus like a dove, not the Father, the Father was still in heaven. Jesus was lead in the desert by the Spirit, not The Father. So, we see that He has His own personality.
The Son came to reveal the Father, and The Holy Spirit later came and continued what Jesus was doing. He is the one who reveals Jesus.
Jesus prayed for another helper to come. The Holy Spirit decended on Jesus, meaning they were one, not two separate beings, one. The Holy Spirit was inside of Jesus, the same concept as The Father, while in heaven.... Jesus words are plain, The Father in me, and I in the Father. By looking at God you will not see three separated Gods, you will only see one God........
The Holy Spirit said that the Isralites tested and tried Him and He said that He was angry. Hebrews 3:7-11. The Holy Spirit equated with God of the Israelites. Hebrews 10:15-17 The Holy Spirit equates the Spirit and The Lord who makes the New Covenant.
The verses are clear when they say that He spoke, can be lied to, our parakletos and others.
But yes that is how I see the trinitarian God.. it's very disturbing to me. I think of God as energy. Present in everything and what makes everything tick. Yet if this trinity is true then my energy theory is offbase because only one part of the Godhead is energy and the others are another form.
Yeah....go through his website and forums.....like uhm...wow. I commented on there a few years ago. They are way worse than Pentecostals. In fact, they hate Pentecostals!
But yes that is how I see the trinitarian God.. it's very disturbing to me. I think of God as energy. Present in everything and what makes everything tick. Yet if this trinity is true then my energy theory is offbase because only one part of the Godhead is energy and the others are another form.
Mark 9:23-24
23. Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”
24. Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”
Matt.17:20
So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.
I agree with you...they are not the same, the Father and the Son, but they are One.
Also regarding the title of "God"....I guess what I was trying to say is, that when I pray, I call Him God...so for me...it is His name.
Last edited by sciotamicks; 11-22-2009 at 10:17 AM..
Reason: added sentence
It is a difficult subject to grasp. I hope you find it uplifting and edifying Christ. And it is hard for all of us to explain it...as you have seen through the various threads.
I guess, it just takes....faith
There are various diagrams out there that may help....it has for me at least in "wrapping" my mind around it.
Last edited by sciotamicks; 11-22-2009 at 10:11 AM..
Reason: added sentence
It is a difficult subject to grasp. I hope you find it uplifting and edifying Christ. And it is hard for all of us to explain it...as you have seen through the various threads.
I guess, it just takes....faith
There are various diagrams out there that may help....it has for me at least in "wrapping" my mind around it.
See that is what gets me.
What SPM stated was right on.. nothing hard to understand. I can back it up word for word in the bible. Simple.
The trinity is, by trinitarian admission, not found in the bible without careful scrutiny, hard to understand and yet is required for salvation.
Out of the two choices of explanation we have (1) simple and true according to scripture or (2) complicated and difficult to grasp.
Really what choice do I have but to have faith in God and believe what I am shown by scripture.
Mark 9:23-24
23. Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”
24. Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”
Matt.17:20
So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.
Blessings.....
It is not faith in God I struggle with, it is unbelief in the three persons in one god that I don't believe. It shouldn't take faith to understand a doctrine because doctrines SHOULD represent scriptural truths and if they don't then we are to discard such man made doctrine.
Many christians reject prayer to saints because they are human.. to me praying to Jesus is the same thing. Jesus was an integral part of my salvation but if I worship him as God and he is not then I am an idolater. I'd rather just worship God.
They are "one".....but who each retains a separate identity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
how can you have an is and an is not connecting the same beings? How can both be God but not equal each other.. that is simple strange and contradictory to me.
Disclaimer Upfront: June has absolutely no idea what the heck she is about to write in terms of having any sense of understanding where in the world it came from, except to say that it actually makes sense to her. --Which naturally makes June question her own sanity.
The only way in which the 'trinity' makes sense to me is in terms of its being undifferentiated. In other words, it exists in a state of inter-relatedness. It is both inter as well as intra related. -Hence, the notion of "Oneness." I don't see the trinity as 'retaining a separate identity.' To do so would detract from the notion of "one God" and in turn, divide God up into three distinct, separate individuals. I tend to think that it is our western cultural mindset that accounts for our thinking of the trinity in those ways. We are, ourselves, 'individuals.' As such, we are all distinct from, separate from, one another. Not so with the trinity, however. The trinity (unlike us humans) is not individuated. It is One.
-Which calls upon the notion of merger. If your God exists, then June would be the first one to proclaim him a genius in how he went about revealing himself to mankind; his own creation. -Because just as a "three-in-one" undifferentiated state is both a paradox as well as a mystery, it is one that is revealed and very clearly seen (and thereby known) through out God's brilliantly genius creation. To use Mystic's analogy of music (with a different understanding/meaning attached) I would think of it this way: There are varying, different, clearly distinct and separate notes on a piano keyboard. If I hit one key/one note (ex: middle C) I hear one sound. However, if I know how to play a chord of middle C, comprised of other 'individual' notes/keys, it will thus produce the same, exact sound. In my combining of more than one key/note I am still able to produce the sound of middle C. One could argue that in doing so, those keys are individual and distinct from one another, but upon striking the chord, they are, in fact, indifferentiated. One. --Yet in order to actually produce that middle C sound in a chord, those seemingly independent keys are inter/intra connected and dependent on one another.
Or, to put it another way....Upon conception, the fetus comes into being. -Is it a separate, distinct entity? The answer goes to the heart of the question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
how can you have an is and an is not connecting the same beings?
So how can you have an "is" and an "is not" that is all the while connecting (or connected to) the same being? Simple. You do. That fetus "is" and "is not" you. It is in a state of merger with you, inter-dependent on and with you up until the moment of birth, at which point it becomes "separate from." (Analogous to the trinity, here...) The fetus exists for nine months in a state of undifferentiation. Fetus and mother are "One." At some point along the way, I can become aware of movement (fetus moving, kicking) but yet, I am also totally aware of the fact that it is not a separate, distinct entity as yet.
Interdependence and relatedness are the only means by which such a concept as the 'trinity' makes sense to June. Our minds tend abstract that which (like the sound of the chord of middle C) is far less complex than it actually need be. We have a tendency to 'over think' things.
--But then, perhaps that is but one more way in which the genius of your God reveals himself: In the inherent mystery of his own Oneness and being. It is a question that screams out "Understand me!" along with compelling one to "find me."
When all the while, the manifestations of that "three-in-one God" exist all around us, everywhere, every single day.
A very, very clever God you have, says June.
It is almost as if he made use of the ultimate and grand emoticon!
Take gentle 'middle C' care.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I want to at least understand this to make a qualified decision as to it's validity. If I don't then I haven't exhausted all argument within myself. There is some weird push to believe this trinity but something within me says it's all to fishy and convoluted to be true.
emoticon!
