Salvation is Through Faith Alone In Christ Alone; Not by your Works (ritual, prayers)
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Harold I am a member of Charlse Stanley's church and you are misconstruing what he meant by using soundbytes. I do not get that from Pastor Stanley, that a "Christian" can live any old way still be saved. That is not a Christian
(John 15:6) NASB- This is a better translation."If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
Abide, dwell, remain. It is the same meaning, really. He is talking to people who already believe, or who already abide/dwell/remain in Christ. Abiding means same as having fellowship with Christ.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 01-12-2010 at 05:48 PM..
(John 15:6) NASB- This is a better translation.
"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
A distinction with out a difference - the Greek word for abide means "to remain".
G3306 menō Thayer Definition:
1) to remain, abide
Most of you here are still discussing some kind of passport into an afterlife fantasy world called "heaven" and what it takes to get the passport and how to retain it.
If we can look beyond a carnal/shallow meaning in scripture I believe that a picture emerges much different from the general understanding of "salvation".
Arminianism and Calvinism is in constant conflict because both take a surface meaning and try to apply it literally to what "salvation" means.
I'll just throw some bread crumbs out for any who wish to follow them (by your predestined free-will ).
1. The only man who was or who ever will be in "heaven" is Jesus.
2. He never left that state - only appeared in flesh in addition to remaining in "heaven". 3. Jesus is a multi-membered body - not one individual.
4. Only that which is born of God, (not by the will of blood or the will of the flesh) is Jesus.
5. As in Adam all die - so in Christ shall all be made alive.
To the contrary. Revelation 6:9-11; Rev.7:9-10 and Rev. 20:4 all show the souls of Old Testament saints and Tribulational martyrs in Heaven, and Rev.19:7 shows the church in Heaven after she has been raptured, and is ready to return to the earth with the Lord.
2 Cor. 5:8 'absent from the body and face to face with the Lord.'
In John 3:13, when Christ said, ''And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man.'', He had not yet been resurrected and ascended and seated at the right hand of the Father. And until He was, no member of the human race was allowed into the throne room of God. The third Heaven. That is why every believer in Christ who died before He ascended into Heaven had to go into 'Paradise', which was a compartment of Hades. Luke 16:19:31. Once Christ was ascended and seated at the right hand of the Father, Heaven was and is open to all believers.
Hmm...thrown into fire means 'losing eternal rewards'? I don't know about that...
I could also refer to our mission on earth. Like a job interview process where some qualify and some are eliminated. It could mean that those of us who are not showing good fruit (promise) will not be considered for critical missions. Who can fill Billy Graham's shoes. I know I can't fill them no matter how hard I try, so I might get eliminated and tossed into the fire in that contest. The fire does not have to mean hell. It could even mean 'purifying' fire for those who slip.
Your source above was a little 'out there'. It counts how many times a certain word is used in the passage, and then concludes 'the word was used eight times, and that means this and that'. How could they possibly come to such conclusion?
Like I said earlier: some things we won't know for 100% certainty until we meet the Lord.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 01-12-2010 at 06:36 PM..
~~This is just another reminder brought to you by your friendly mod, letting everyone know that the insults, flaming, and so forth have tostop. -As in: NOW.
Otherwise June gets cranky.
...And when June gets cranky, well, you all know the drill....So PLEASE stay on topic and just debate the OP and NOT one another. (Except nicely. As outlined in the Terms of Service.)
The solution is that God is CAl - Minian. The calling of God is arbitrary and sovereign. He calls whomever he wills and not all are called. However once called God provides grace that the man may be able to choose.
He does more than that. He provides regeneration, a new heart and a new spirit so that the man wants to choose the good.
Quote:
When it comes to sin no man has Free Will - we are all servants of sin and Satan until God calls us out of the kingdom of Satan. Once called we are able to obey by the grace of God IF we will choose to follow after Jesus.
Unless I've misunderstood you, this seems problematic. It essentially makes the ability to obey contingent upon the creature's choice, but that seems circular. It's like saying, "The slave to sin can obey if he chooses to obey." If this were really how it was, though, nobody would be saved because our choices before regeneration will always be away from God and toward self and sin. The mind set on the flesh is hostile to God and cannot submit to the Law of God. What would make that mind set on the flesh decide to turn around and "choose to follow after Jesus"?
Quote:
Those whom he calls are predestined to be conformed to the nature of His Son. That does not mean they do not have a choice - it means the plan to be conformed to Jesus was predestined - not the outcome. Only a few of the many who are called will be chosen.
This seems odd. Please explain how God, being sovereign, could predestine the plan (assuming by "plan" you mean the carrying out of the plan in the sinner's actual life) without also predestining the outcome. Also, when Paul wrote that God predestined those whom he foreknew to be conformed to the image of his Son, he made no distinction between a plan and the outcome of the plan. The outcome is clearly stated in the word "conformed."
Here is something for you to think about: my father has been a believer since he was 17 and he speaks in tongues, and he knows many people who speak in tongues as well. Now, I am sure we all agree that speaking in tongues is a special gift which not everyone receives. My father told me that there are people who received the gift but who have later turned their backs to Christ and returned to life of sin. Guess what? They are sinners and they can still speak in tongues. Freaky, isn't it? The gift was never taken away. How do you explain that? Could it be same with salvation? Once the receive the gift, it is never taken back?
I tend to agree with you on the issue of OSAS, but at the same time I must say that some things we simply cannot know for sure until we meet the Lord.
What is OSAS? Sorry but I don't know what that is
Regarding you comment on the gift of tongues. Scripture says that God's gifts are irrevocable. In other words they will not be taken away. And just look at the following scripture.
Hmm, God does NOT change His mind. I guess the losing of one's salvation completely goes out the window with this Scripture!!! Praise God in Heaven.
Romans 11:29 (Amplified Bible)
29For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]
And I love your post here!! People can say all they want and give opinion after opinion but you cannot explain away a miracle or testimony because they are proof of God's amazing Word and grace!!!
~~This is just another reminder brought to you by your friendly mod, letting everyone know that the insults, flaming, and so forth have tostop. -As in: NOW.
Otherwise June gets cranky.
...And when June gets cranky, well, you all know the drill....So PLEASE stay on topic and just debate the OP and NOT one another. (Except nicely. As outlined in the Terms of Service.)
Signed,
"The Eyes of June"
We don't want June to get cranky now do we everyone???
Harold I am a member of Charlse Stanley's church and you are misconstruing what he meant by using soundbytes. I do not get that from Pastor Stanley, that a "Christian" can live any old way still be saved. That is not a Christian
HaHaHa!!! For someone to accuse Charles Stanley of anything other than Godliness is just downright ridiculous to say the least.. He is one of the most humble, gracious, Godly men of all time.
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As outlined in the Terms of Service.)
