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To the contrary. Revelation 6:9-11; Rev.7:9-10 and Rev. 20:4 all show the souls of Old Testament saints and Tribulational martyrs in Heaven, and Rev.19:7 shows the church in Heaven after she has been raptured, and is ready to return to the earth with the Lord.
So then - where is planet heaven?
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Originally Posted by Mike555
2 Cor. 5:8 'absent from the body and face to face with the Lord.'
Yes, then the veil is completely removed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
In John 3:13, when Christ said, ''And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man.'', He had not yet been resurrected and ascended and seated at the right hand of the Father. And until He was, no member of the human race was allowed into the throne room of God. The third Heaven. That is why every believer in Christ who died before He ascended into Heaven had to go into 'Paradise', which was a compartment of Hades. Luke 16:19:31. Once Christ was ascended and seated at the right hand of the Father, Heaven was and is open to all believers.
Mike, AISI the key words here are 'ascended' and 'descended'. Again - a shallow/carnal/literal understanding has people going down into the ground and flying up into the sky. If that's the case - where are they flying to?
My point has to do with 'sozo' AKA salvation.
The 'real' non religious meaning of the word is:
Quote:
to save one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health
At rebirth - a death, a resurrection and an ascension takes place. We are now ascended with Christ (we are seated with Him in heavenly places).
There is another bigger analogy (more like what you guys are discussing here) which would be the death in the garden ("you shall surely die") spiritual resurrection ("As Christ was raised from the dead - even so you should we walk in newness of life") and ascension (literally leaving our physical bodies behind as our spirits return to God who gave them).
So - AISI - that's what salvation is - restoration to a conscious relationship with our creator which was lost and (as you pointed out) will be manifested fully when the veil is completely removed,
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when the silver cord is loosed, the golden bowl is broken, the pitcher shattered at the fountain, the wheel broken at the well. Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Knowing Jesus heals us from the disease of the soul. We become one with God and I can tell you for sure it doesn't get any better than that. Of course - I don't like all the pain and all the trials we go through in this present state but really - eternal life is all about knowing God, right? So, in the sense it will obviously be GREAT not to have all the hassles of physical life - I am looking forward to the absolute full realization of the 'heaven' I already inhabit.
Honestly - all this discussion I hear around here about losing 'salvation' or having 'eternal security' or not and needing to have an accurate doctrinal understanding to be 'saved' - saddens me because it seems something is missing and the void is trying to be filled with theology.
Once I realized God was my Father - such thoughts/concerns have never crossed my mind. And why should they? Since I WANT to grow and be more like my Father (it's Him in me - as the old me has 'died').
The bottom line is that believers are progressively healed (sozo - saved) from our nightmare of spiritual darkness and all that goes along with it. We aren't earning (or receiving) a pass to planet heaven by believing a certain doctrine or obeying a ritual or commandment. When our eyes are opened (by grace) and spiritual rebirth occurs we are filled with the spirit of wisdom and understanding in the knowledge of Him. As we "grow up" in Him a perfect (agape) love should dominate our lives more and more. Then we fulfill all righteousness more and more by loving God (the source of our love) and loving our neighbor as ourselves.
This doesn't all happen overnight. It's a journey - yet you guys are (mostly) talking about having to understand certain doctrines and believe/act certain ways to be 'saved' when all along being 'saved' actually simply means to be healed of our spiritual disease.
God made himself real to me straight from atheism and maybe that's actually a good thing. I love Him, He loves me and - what else is there?
AISI - this is life eternal.
I hope all this makes some sense to some of you guys.
Mike, AISI the key words here are 'ascended' and 'descended'. Again - a shallow/carnal/literal understanding has people going down into the ground and flying up into the sky. If that's the case - where are they flying to?
My point has to do with 'sozo' AKA salvation.
The 'real' non religious meaning of the word is:
At rebirth - a death, a resurrection and an ascension takes place. We are now ascended with Christ (we are seated with Him in heavenly places).
There is another bigger analogy (more like what you guys are discussing here) which would be the death in the garden ("you shall surely die") spiritual resurrection ("As Christ was raised from the dead - even so you should we walk in newness of life") and ascension (literally leaving our physical bodies behind as our spirits return to God who gave them).
So - AISI - that's what salvation is - restoration to a conscious relationship with our creator which was lost and (as you pointed out) will be manifested fully when the veil is completely removed,
Knowing Jesus heals us from the disease of the soul. We become one with God and I can tell you for sure it doesn't get any better than that. Of course - I don't like all the pain and all the trials we go through in this present state but really - eternal life is all about knowing God, right? So, in the sense it will obviously be GREAT not to have all the hassles of physical life - I am looking forward to the absolute full realization of the 'heaven' I already inhabit.
Honestly - all this discussion I hear around here about losing 'salvation' or having 'eternal security' or not and needing to have an accurate doctrinal understanding to be 'saved' - saddens me because it seems something is missing and the void is trying to be filled with theology.
Once I realized God was my Father - such thoughts/concerns have never crossed my mind. And why should they? Since I WANT to grow and be more like my Father (it's Him in me - as the old me has 'died').
The bottom line is that believers are progressively healed (sozo - saved) from our nightmare of spiritual darkness and all that goes along with it. We aren't earning (or receiving) a pass to planet heaven by believing a certain doctrine or obeying a ritual or commandment. When our eyes are opened (by grace) and spiritual rebirth occurs we are filled with the spirit of wisdom and understanding in the knowledge of Him. As we "grow up" in Him a perfect (agape) love should dominate our lives more and more. Then we fulfill all righteousness more and more by loving God (the source of our love) and loving our neighbor as ourselves.
This doesn't all happen overnight. It's a journey - yet you guys are (mostly) talking about having to understand certain doctrines and believe/act certain ways to be 'saved' when all along being 'saved' actually simply means to be healed of our spiritual disease.
God made himself real to me straight from atheism and maybe that's actually a good thing. I love Him, He loves me and - what else is there?
AISI - this is life eternal.
I hope all this makes some sense to some of you guys.
Great post Firstborn and it certainly makes complete sense to me .
Regarding you comment on the gift of tongues. Scripture says that God's gifts are irrevocable. In other words they will not be taken away. And just look at the following scripture.
Hmm, God does NOT change His mind. I guess the losing of one's salvation completely goes out the window with this Scripture!!! Praise God in Heaven.
OSAS = Once Saved Always Saved. As stated in Romans, once you are on God's palm, you are there forever. However, there are verses which indicate that there are ways to lose salvation.
Althought I tend to believe there are millions of people who believe they are saved, when they are not, it is not for me to declare whether they were never saved, or they abandoned God later. It is also not for me to claim that someone is saved or not saved. That is God's job. My example of the tongues proves that the Gift of the tongues was NOT taken back from those people who abandoned God. So if the gift of tongues is not taken back then why should other gifts like salvation be taken back.
I struggle making up my mind about what and who to believe when it comes to understnading the Bible. It is written in such summarized and mysterious way, that is very difficult. Luckily we all agree on the basic message, and only argue over the details. I want to study theology through an on-line program, but the ones I have found are very expensive (18K). I will keep looking because I believe God has something in store for me, but first I need to 'put on the armor', and in this case specifically the 'sword of the Spirit , which is the word of God'.
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Ephesians 6:11-18 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.
Well I am not sure what things you are referring to but I am honestly responding to this particular thread in regards to salvation ChristyGirl. For the most part everything that I have read that Mike has said I am in agreement with but just like everyone else I am sure that Mike and I don't agree on everything.
Are you in agreement with this statement that Mike made:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
That's right legalist. Once someone believes in Christ for salvation, they are saved even if they turn around and reject Christ after having accepted Him as Savior. And it is amazing. This is something that people such as yourself will never understand.
If you agree with this statement....then you do not believe in the same Savior I do because you cannot reject or "spit in the face of Christ" and still be saved and anyone who teaches that is not a son a God.
Ok Harold, this is gone too far... I totally respect Charles Stanley, John MacArthur and the like.. Please out of respect for those men DO NOT gossip or talk down about them. You are treading on a fine line and dangerous ground when you start making judgemental comments on God's elect.. Who are you to do that? That is brazen and wrong and now your are in sin...because gossip is a sin.. Is it not? You are talking about someone behind their back...
How is posting what someone wrote in a book gossip???? These are words that Charles Stanley, himself, wrote in a book that is sold to the public. Perhaps you should look up the word gossip and find out what it means because I believe you are a little confused.....what you're accusing Harold of is not gossip.
Hmm...thrown into fire means 'losing eternal rewards'? I don't know about that...
What you have to understand Finn is the OSAS crowd has to spin all the parables and passages that say thrown into the fire, placed in outer darkness, broken off and burned, etc...as losing rewards because if they actually used the meaning that Jesus taught it with, it would throw their doctrine right out the window.
If you agree with this statement....then you do not believe in the same Savior I do because you cannot reject or "spit in the face of Christ" and still be saved and anyone who teaches that is not a son a God.
I am neither for or against either side of the argument, my security is in Him not a doctrine , but i guess i am not a son of God in your eyes , because through the years i have met believers who turned their backs on the Lord yet to return to Him through Him never giving up on them.
The wonderful thing about the grace of God is , it's unmerited and if you turn your back on it , it will shine on your back .
The scriptures tell us nothing shall seperate us from the love of God .
We don't want June to get cranky now do we everyone???
You know Raelyn, I'll bet that Mike guy really has a nice smile.
Actually I think he is genuinely sincere in his beliefs and he's certainly aggr er assertive in presenting them. With great respect it's just that's he's sooo often flat out wrong, in my own humble opinion of course, you would see it differently...
I am neither for or against either side of the argument, my security is in Him not a doctrine , but i guess i am not a son of God in your eyes , because through the years i have met believers who turned their backs on the Lord yet to return to Him through Him never giving up on them.
The wonderful thing about the grace of God is , it's unmerited and if you turn your back on it , it will shine on your back .
The scriptures tell us nothing shall seperate us from the love of God.
No it's not, it's a witness within me .Just like King David said from the innermost part of his being "The Lord is my Shepherd". This from a man who committed adultery and murder.
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