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John 11 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Col 2 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him:...And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:....And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 3 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
I expect you to read all of Colosians too. And Ironmaw, your theology of Purification in fire is NOWHERE in the scriptures....Nowhere, unless you rip another verse out of its context again, which I am sure you will.
UR is a Bold Faced Lie without a leg to stand...like I said, no wonder the council deemed it a heresy.
None of the verses you quoted says anything about having to believe before you die or even before the judgment in order to be saved. They say if you believe before you die you are saved, but not that if you dont believe before you you will not be saved. You infer from the verses you quoted, but they do not say what you yourself infer. Just because someone is saved before they die if they believe in Christ, that does not mean that they cannot be saved by believing in Christ after they die ... To claim otherwise is to use a logical fallacy.
As far as God fiery judgments being for purification ...
Malachi 3:3-4
But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
1Cr 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
And the word torment in the book of revelation is a translation of the greek word basanizō which is a touchstone used to test the purity of metals in the process of refining them. The symbolism obviously points to the purifying of the fire of Gods judgments referred to in Malachi 3 and which is spoken of by Paul in 1 Corinthians which works towards the salvation of those who have no good works.
None of the verses you quoted says anything about haveing to believe before you die or even before the judgment in order to be saved.
Maybe you are just blind to the truth, or choose not to see it outside of those UR glasses of yours, but they do Ironmaw. Dead in sin, means alive in body, believe in Christ, means alive in sprit, eternally. But I guess I can't expect you to discern even the simplest things, as your interpretations have shown the readers of the forum in the past, and as I have pointed it out on numerous occasions.
I have a good idea, instead of just saying they say nothing about it, prove it to the readers of the forum why they don't say what I present, like any decent exegete would do,...or are you able to at all?
But I am sure you will just spout off your UR banter about how wrong ET is and everyone else here who doesn't agree with your rhetoric.
Prove to us your exegete qualities. Your credibility is at stake here.
Quote:
They say if you believe before you die you are saved,
Do I detect clarity?
Quote:
but not that if you dont believe before you you will not be saved.
Oh!!! I guess not. Listen up student:
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Lest you forget student, that the scriptures are written to those that are already saved, and to those seeking the faith, NOT TO THE REBEL who fights against the faith.
It is written for the humbled, not the hardened.
The scriptures are letters of promise, hope, assurance to the church.
So your theology is severely skewed into a pale, blinding light that has blurred your entire vision of the gospel message.
Here you go again dear student:
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
But I am sure you will twist this one up too with alot of UR rhetoric.
Give me an interpretation with an exegesis, or lest you never wear the title of an exegete.
PROVE IT TO US IRONMAW! Your credibility is at stake.
I don't want to hear any rhetorical UR jargon. I want an EXEGESIS!
Quote:
You infer from the verses you quoted, but they do not say what you yourself infer. Just because somone is saved before they die if they believe in Christ, that does not mean that they cannot be saved by believing in Christ after they die ... To claim otherwise is to use a logical fallacy.
False, and there is no scripture that deals with this, and please your scriptures of Mal 3 and 1 Cor 3 are about first, the faithful Levite priestly line fulfilled in Christ in which us, Christians are priests and kings in this order, and secondly 1 Cor 3 is NOT about salvation in the lake of fire. Your usage of these scriptures are as heretical as they come.
Stay in context, or stay out of the debate. You are making yourself look like a fool.
Do it....prove it to us here at the forum that you are capable of this.
Because from what we have seen so far, you are just drinking milk, sour milk at that.
Take a bit of this steak, it is sweet as honey, but it will be bitter to your UR paradigm that is what it is, a heresy.
It appears Mike is on a crusade of great lengths to prove UR is not of God , reminds me of a man who wrote many of the epistles in the New Testament .
Something must be rattling you Mike to have so many threads on the go . Could it be the truth ?.
One of the verses that universalists like to use as proof of the false doctrine of universalism is 1 Timothy 4:10 ''...who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.''
According to the universalists this verse says that all men will be saved. But that is not the meaning or intent of the passage. The intent of the passage is to show that Christ died for the sins of the entire world, so that those who believe in Christ will be saved. The passage makes it clear that 'BELIEVERS' are in view here. There are numerous passages that show that while God desires that all men be saved, He actually saves only those who have trusted in Christ and His finished and completed work on the Cross for salvation.
For example, Jesus declared...
''For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVES in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:16)
And
''Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and BELIEVES Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come unto judgment, but has passed out of death into life.'' (John 5:24)
The Apostle John wrote...
''The one who BELIEVES in the Son of God has the witness in himself, the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning His Son. 11) And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12) He who has the Son has the life, he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.'' (1 John 5:10-12)
Regarding 1 Timothy 4, David Guzik said;
quote
''It isn't that all men are saved in an universalist sense, but that there is only one Savior for all men, it isn't as if Christians have one Savior and others might have another Savior. But notice Pauls point: especially of those who believe. Jesus' work is adequate to save all, but only effective in saving those who come to Him by faith. (1 Timothy 4).
unquote
John MacArthur said...
quote
''Pauls point is not that He actually saves the whole world (for that would be universalism, and Scripture clearly teaches not all will be saved.) The point is that He is the only Savior to whom anyone in the world can turn for forgiveness and eternal life--and therefore He urges all to embrace Him as Savior. Jesus Christ is proffered to the world as Savior.''
unquote
(Master's Seminary Journal Volume 7. Spring 1996)
In John 14:6 'Jesus said to him, ''I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.''
Acts 4:12 states, ''And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under Heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved.''
Adam Clarke wrote in his commentary...
quote
''What God intends for ALL, he actually gives to them that believe in Christ, who died for the sins of the world, and tasted death for every man. As all have been purchased by his blood so that all may believe, and consequently all may be saved. Those that perish, perish through their own fault.
unquote
Christ died for all (He is the Savior of all men ;1 Tim. 4:10) in order that 'whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16.'
Those verses seem more like an identifying statement...as if one were asking "who will be saved" or "who is a true believer"...Like in Romans when Paul speaks of Predestination some bibles translate it as "according to His Forknowledge" which is ambiguous...Is he talking about of an event, an action or a person?....but the actual Greek states "because of whom He foreknew"...So with "whom" he is talking about knowledge of a person not an event or action...
One of the verses that universalists like to use as proof of the false doctrine of universalism is 1 Timothy 4:10 ''...who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.''
According to the universalists this verse says that all men will be saved. But that is not the meaning or intent of the passage. The intent of the passage is to show that Christ died for the sins of the entire world, so that those who believe in Christ will be saved. The passage makes it clear that 'BELIEVERS' are in view here. There are numerous passages that show that while God desires that all men be saved, He actually saves only those who have trusted in Christ and His finished and completed work on the Cross for salvation.
For example, Jesus declared...
''For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVES in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:16)
And
''Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and BELIEVES Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come unto judgment, but has passed out of death into life.'' (John 5:24)
The Apostle John wrote...
''The one who BELIEVES in the Son of God has the witness in himself, the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning His Son. 11) And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12) He who has the Son has the life, he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.'' (1 John 5:10-12)
Regarding 1 Timothy 4, David Guzik said;
quote
''It isn't that all men are saved in an universalist sense, but that there is only one Savior for all men, it isn't as if Christians have one Savior and others might have another Savior. But notice Pauls point: especially of those who believe. Jesus' work is adequate to save all, but only effective in saving those who come to Him by faith. (1 Timothy 4).
unquote
John MacArthur said...
quote
''Pauls point is not that He actually saves the whole world (for that would be universalism, and Scripture clearly teaches not all will be saved.) The point is that He is the only Savior to whom anyone in the world can turn for forgiveness and eternal life--and therefore He urges all to embrace Him as Savior. Jesus Christ is proffered to the world as Savior.''
unquote
(Master's Seminary Journal Volume 7. Spring 1996)
In John 14:6 'Jesus said to him, ''I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.''
Acts 4:12 states, ''And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under Heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved.''
Adam Clarke wrote in his commentary...
quote
''What God intends for ALL, he actually gives to them that believe in Christ, who died for the sins of the world, and tasted death for every man. As all have been purchased by his blood so that all may believe, and consequently all may be saved. Those that perish, perish through their own fault.
unquote
Christ died for all (He is the Savior of all men ;1 Tim. 4:10) in order that 'whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16.'
Did all of you universalists catch what Mike said? - he said that the verse doesn't say what it says. He didn't even explain why the verse should be understood differently but rather used God's Word against God's Word.
The really really sad thing about Mike's post of the thoughts of those men against the truth of God saving all humans is this:
The reason given as to why God will save all humans in 1 Timothy 2:4 is given in 2:6: "For, (or the reason why this is so that God will save all humans) "Christ gave Himself a ransom for all."
The really sad thing is that these people are ignorant of what ransom really does. People are just too lazy to search it out. Look through the whole Old Testament on the word "ransom" and take note that everyone held in bondage or anything ransomed such as an animal that was ransomed had to be freed.
All mankind are in bondage to sin and death. Christ ransomed all mankind. Therefore all mankind must be freed into God's salvation.
It is just that simple. But a Christian mind is such a terrible thing to waste. It is just too bad people are just too lazy to check these things out.
Of all men - this phrase has led to discussions that God saves "all men", but even this passage specifies "believers". If that is not sufficient, there are many passages that clearly teach God while being able to save all men, actually saves only those who place their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on Calvary.
For example Jesus declared...
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (John 5:24)
The apostle John adds that...
10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning His Son.
11 And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1John 5:10-13)
Believers (pistos from peitho = to persuade) was used to describe persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties.
Of all men - this phrase has led to discussions that God saves "all men", but even this passage specifies "believers". If that is not sufficient, there are many passages that clearly teach God while being able to save all men, actually saves only those who place their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on Calvary.
For example Jesus declared...
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (John 5:24)
The apostle John adds that...
10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning His Son.
11 And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1John 5:10-13)
Believers (pistos from peitho = to persuade) was used to describe persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties.
Christ ransomed all mankind. Quit being so lazy and see what that really means. Good grief! You can't unransom yourself once the ransom has been made. Have you no shame to contradict God?
It seems to me as if you were following the vain teachings of men, and that you value the words of David Guzik, John MacArthur and Adam Clarke more than the words of Paul himself, I have never heard these names and I do not care what they say what that verse does mean or not mean.
This verse is as plain as simple, God is the savior of all men, NOT ONLY - but especially of believers, therefore God is ALSO the savior of EVERYBODY else, which actually only make sense if He actually will save all men.
Anyone reading this thread is urged in the strongest possible terms to not be deceived by these universalists. Universalism is a Satanic attempt to lull people into a false sense of security concerning eternal salvation. The Bible is explicit on the urgency, the necessity of placing your faith, your trust, your confidence, in Jesus Christ in order to be saved from the eternal lake of fire. It is Satan's desire to prevent whoever he may from understanding the absolute importance of believing in Christ for salvation. And therefore he has introduced into the world the heresy of universalism. And he has deceived many as can be seen by the universalists on this forum. And some of these are perhaps not merely themselves deceived, but possibly know that what they are saying is false, and are purposely attempting to deceive who they may. This then, makes them wolves in sheeps clothing.
Indeed. This universalism aka 'one world religion' which promises every sinner, Muslim, Buddhist and atheist an automatic salvation is another masterpiece of Satan. All we can do is pray that it will be exposed as a false religion before too many are deceived and end up in hell because of it. Satan will want nothing more than deceive people into thinking they do not need Christ to be saved, because they are automatically saved.
Circle the wagons brothers and sisters, Christianity is under attack.
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