Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Rev 20:14 tells us exactly what the second death is: "Death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
Definitions can be given backward, so let us turn this around for clarity. "The second death is death and hell cast into the lake of fire." Therefore we have exactly the same meaning either way it is stated. What is the second death?
It is the first death and hell cast into the lake of fire.
This fact is very important. The second death is not merely the lake of fire, or men being tortured for ever in the lake of fire. Everything cast into the lake of fire pertains to death - death itself is cast into the lake of fire. Hell, the realm of the dead, is cast into the lake of fire. And those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, those who are dead, in trespasses and in sins, who inhabit hell, are cast into the lake of fire. That is the end of death and hell and sin, for God shall destroy death in the lake of fire, He shall burn up hell in the lake of fire, and He shall consume sin and rebellion in the lake of fire.
But did we notice what Rev 2:11 has to say? "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the Churches; He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death." It does not say that the overcomer experiences nothing of the second death, that he does not pass through it, or that its work is not wrought in his life; but the thought is that he will not be "hurt" by it. It is possible to pass through the most terrible experience and not be hurt by it.
Think Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow you: and when you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon you" (Isa. 43:2).
The ready solution of the difficulty is - for us to die to sin, or to kill the evil desire lurking in our bodily members. To die to any reality is to withdraw correspondence with it, to cut ourselves off from all communication with it. The solution of the problem will simply be this, for the spiritual life to reverse continually the processes of the fleshly life. The spiritual man having passed from death unto life - the fleshly man must next proceed to pass from life unto death. Regeneration of the spirit in short must be accompanied by degeneration of the flesh, the carnal mind. And this death process is the second death - the death of death! Now it is no surprise to find that this is the process everywhere described and recommended by the Holy Spirit! Paul asked the burning question, "Who will deliver me from this body of death?" and swift came the answer, "O thank God! - HE WILL - through Jesus Christ our Lord! " (Rom. 7:24-25).
To back this wonderful post up is that Jesus, when washing the disciples feet, stated that they were already clean so they just needed their feet washed not their body. But there are some who need more than feet cleaning! (I know I did) Then Jesus states that in order to be saved EVERYONE must be washed by him. So the already clean (believers) will not be HURT by the second death, but the unclean (outside the city) will be HURT by the second death which is by fire.
We can then see that the bad will be burned leaving the person clean.
1 Cor. 3:15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
I personally don't think Rev. is talking about after death but during life on earth. A couple reasons:
Job 23:10 "But He knows the way I take; When He has tried me, I shall come forth as gold.
Psalm 66:12 You made men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water, Yet You brought us out into a place of abundance. << Eternal Life?
1 Peter 1:7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
Revelation 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
How do you buy these things? Isaiah 55:1 "Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.
Seems to me that refining is only beneficial during life on earth.
Birth; Equivalent of death from the spirit angle or world
Death; Shedding of the outer body, freeing the spirit
Ressurection; Immediately after death the spirit is said to ressurrect to the spirit realm from where it can be sent for another existence on earth.
Ressurrection in scripture cludes reincarnation.
Judgement: The aftermth of our actions on earth having an effect on our reincarntion.
I was just wondering Meerkat.....you mentioned Universal reconciliation in your title......when do you think this happens? Is it a collective thing or does each person get reconciled individually after they have served their "sentence", so to speak?
I put UR there because my focus is not on the lake of fire being the place of "eternal" torment and do not want the thread to deteriorate to another UR vs ET thread.
But I do want everyones ideas on the process of death, judgment and resurrection, and how they all tie together.
As to your question what I am thinking is that it is that it may be an individual thing.
Rev 20:14 tells us exactly what the second death is: "Death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
Definitions can be given backward, so let us turn this around for clarity. "The second death is death and hell cast into the lake of fire." Therefore we have exactly the same meaning either way it is stated. What is the second death?
It is the first death and hell cast into the lake of fire.
This fact is very important. The second death is not merely the lake of fire, or men being tortured for ever in the lake of fire. Everything cast into the lake of fire pertains to death - death itself is cast into the lake of fire. Hell, the realm of the dead, is cast into the lake of fire. And those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, those who are dead, in trespasses and in sins, who inhabit hell, are cast into the lake of fire. That is the end of death and hell and sin, for God shall destroy death in the lake of fire, He shall burn up hell in the lake of fire, and He shall consume sin and rebellion in the lake of fire.
But did we notice what Rev 2:11 has to say? "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the Churches; He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death." It does not say that the overcomer experiences nothing of the second death, that he does not pass through it, or that its work is not wrought in his life; but the thought is that he will not be "hurt" by it. It is possible to pass through the most terrible experience and not be hurt by it.
Think Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow you: and when you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon you" (Isa. 43:2).
The ready solution of the difficulty is - for us to die to sin, or to kill the evil desire lurking in our bodily members. To die to any reality is to withdraw correspondence with it, to cut ourselves off from all communication with it. The solution of the problem will simply be this, for the spiritual life to reverse continually the processes of the fleshly life. The spiritual man having passed from death unto life - the fleshly man must next proceed to pass from life unto death. Regeneration of the spirit in short must be accompanied by degeneration of the flesh, the carnal mind. And this death process is the second death - the death of death! Now it is no surprise to find that this is the process everywhere described and recommended by the Holy Spirit! Paul asked the burning question, "Who will deliver me from this body of death?" and swift came the answer, "O thank God! - HE WILL - through Jesus Christ our Lord! " (Rom. 7:24-25).
Little Elmer, thank you -- that is some of the thoughts I have been pondering about what the "lake of fire" is.
I believe that the scriptures primarily speak to us of spiritual events as opposed to past or future historical events, but they also speak of past and future historical events using the same words. I suspect we run into difficulties when we mix the spiritual events with the past/present/future/historical events and then try to sequence them.
1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Your question is about death, judgment, ressurection but the scriptures speak of multiple kinds of each of these: physical death, death in trespasses and sins, second death, dying in Christ, judgment (krisis), down-judgment (katakrisis) ressurection to condemnation, ressurection to life.
As far as the sequencing of the spiritual events... this is my working hypothesis which I gleen from "the sum of th word is truth"...
1. Death (i.e. dead in tresspasses and sin) in the day thou eat thereof thou shallt surely die
dead people proceeding through the wide gate
God gives warning to flee the wrath to come i.e. God "dungs" the tree then God gives time to repent, twelve months (Daniel 4:29, Luke 13:8)
Longsuffering upon the vessels of dishonor
...
...
...
God inspects the tree again and finds it not bearning fruit
Jesus comes as a thief in the night
2. Resurrection to condemnation --> katakrisis
culmination of going through the wide gate
my word will condemn him in the last day
God rains fire and snares upon the wicked
day of vengeance of our God / day of the LORD
tree cut down and cast in the fire
no mercy upon the vessels of dishonor
lake of fire / gehenna / cast outside the kingdom
the wrath of God abides on him
second death (hurt by)
weeping & gnashing of teeth
...
...
...
3. Faith comes
faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of the Lord (the exectution thereof) "And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee Deut 30:1"
repentance
turning to Christ with all your heart and soul
going through the narrow gate
acceptable year of the LORD
mercy
second death continues (not hurt by)
...
4. Resurrection to life
fiery trials, God tries the righteous in fire
judgment (krisis, not katakrisis) upon the household of faith
dying daily, taking up our cross and following Christ, lose our life for the LORD
second death continues (not hurt by) who can abide the everlasting burnings? he who walks righteously
All of these can take place prior to physical death
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled
Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh
Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel
Thank you!! --- just what I am looking for.
What I have been thinking is that the physical letter of the word that we read with our physical eyes gets mixed with the spiritual message and then we get futurism and preterism which tries to put salvation and fullfillment of prophecy all at only one point - instead of as a process.
To back this wonderful post up is that Jesus, when washing the disciples feet, stated that they were already clean so they just needed their feet washed not their body. But there are some who need more than feet cleaning! (I know I did) Then Jesus states that in order to be saved EVERYONE must be washed by him. So the already clean (believers) will not be HURT by the second death, but the unclean (outside the city) will be HURT by the second death which is by fire.
We can then see that the bad will be burned leaving the person clean.
1 Cor. 3:15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
I personally don't think Rev. is talking about after death but during life on earth. A couple reasons:
Job 23:10 "But He knows the way I take; When He has tried me, I shall come forth as gold.
Psalm 66:12 You made men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water, Yet You brought us out into a place of abundance. << Eternal Life?
1 Peter 1:7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
Revelation 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
How do you buy these things? Isaiah 55:1 "Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.
Seems to me that refining is only beneficial during life on earth.
Kat If it only takes place on the earth - why is it called the second death then, and what happens to unrepentant murderers who are not clean and have definitely not been washed by the word (Jesus)?
Birth; Equivalent of death from the spirit angle or world
Death; Shedding of the outer body, freeing the spirit
Ressurection; Immediately after death the spirit is said to ressurrect to the spirit realm from where it can be sent for another existence on earth.
Ressurrection in scripture cludes reincarnation.
Judgement: The aftermth of our actions on earth having an effect on our reincarntion.
Thanks for your reply -- what I am really after is how it pertains to scripture.
What I have been thinking is that the physical letter of the word that we read with our physical eyes gets mixed with the spiritual message and then we get futurism and preterism which tries to put salvation and fullfillment of prophecy all at only one point - instead of as a process.
Ezekiel 12:25 But I the LORD will speak what I will, and it shall be fulfilled without delay. For in your days, you rebellious house, I will fulfill whatever I say, declares the Sovereign LORD.' 26 The word of the LORD came to me: 27 "Son of man, the house of Israel is saying, 'The vision he sees is for many years from now, and he prophesies about the distant future.' 28 "Therefore say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: None of my words will be delayed any longer; whatever I say will be fulfilled, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "
Kat If it only takes place on the earth - why is it called the second death then, and what happens to unrepentant murderers who are not clean and have definitely not been washed by the word (Jesus)?
I think then we have to define the first death. A poster stated that the end of death is life.. therefore the first death was in Adam and the second is in Christ which is Life.
First Death - Death in Adam
Second Death - Life in Christ.
I don't think either of them refer to physical death and that also explains why the first death is not talked about.
I also didn't mean to imply that people need to be washed in the word but in Christ's act of redemption. His act of redemption redeemed all sinners. A sinner can be completely oblivious to their cleanliness but God because of Jesus' act of redemption sees that sinner clothed in fine linen white as snow.
Colossians 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
I also didn't mean to imply that people need to be washed in the word but in Christ's act of redemption. His act of redemption redeemed all sinners. A sinner can be completely oblivious to their cleanliness but God because of Jesus' act of redemption sees that sinner clothed in fine linen white as snow.
What about judgment on works? -- what you are saying is that for some Christ just covers up the sin, and this is what traditional christianity believes, especially OSAS you can say I believe and then not love your neighbour as yourself, you can lie cheat and steal even murder and then Christ just covers your sin -- in the OT in Jer 7 God was against the Jews that were doing just that ..... they were using sacrifices to cover their sins with no true repentance or wanting to do what was right. Love God and loving their neighbours as themselves.
This is why I believe that preterism where it applies to the physical Jews has been completed but there is "spiritual" prophecy that is still being fullfilled and will be fulfilled --- preterism is only a part of the story............
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
